SwordSage + Monk = 2x Wis AC bonus?

[Hypersmurf]

“When unarmored and unencumbered, a ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to here Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk’s AC bonus ability (a ninja with levels of monk does not add the bonus twice).”

Now if this was indeed a “typed” bonus this statement is totally unnecessary since bonuses of the same “type” do not stack unless specifically stated otherwise.

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.

It wouldn't be the first time typed bonuses were explicitly called out as not stacking

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.

It wouldn't be the first time typed bonuses were explicitly called out as not stacking

-Hyp.

Good point.

But then why aren't these Ability mod "bonuses" specified in the DMG?

Enhancement is a type of bonus listed in the DMG.

Also it never states (as far as I've found anyway) that the wis bonus and wis modifer are the same thing. (Using wisdom as the example where we know that other ability mod are also used). This is something that we put together on our own like an optical illusion. Our minds fill in the gaps.

IMO WotC was simply trying to save space by not retyping a bonus equal to your (Ability) modifer (if positive) in stead of Ability bonus. The sheer number of times that the short version is used would lead to a large increase in words of the end document - but that doesn't alleviate the problem that they never put in writing that is what they meant.

 

[pawsplay]

Or to look at it a different way, any type a bonus is assigned that is not a type, it is an untyped bonus. Technically, the monk's bonus could be seen as an increase, not a bonus (you don't gain a bonus, you add a bonus to the AC). But it doesn't matter.

 

[pawsplay]

Also it never states (as far as I've found anyway) that the wis bonus and wis modifer are the same thing. (Using wisdom as the example where we know that other ability mod are also used). This is something that we put together on our own like an optical illusion. Our minds fill in the gaps.

ABILITY MODIFIERS
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. It also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to
that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.

So this vocabulary is specifically defined in the book.

 

[moritheil]

There are builds that rack up 3x Charisma modifier to saves. Does anyone actually question a DM's right to veto such a build, regardless of the fact that some of the PrCs involved might say "bonus" and some might say "modifier?"

 

[Moon-Lancer]

how many times can we split the hair. its pritty thin already

Im Chaotic Devin btw

 

[pawsplay]

Well, bonuses from the same source don't stack, so you are free to say that multiple +Cha to save bonuses are from the same source (Cha).

 

[moritheil]

Indeed. I think that someone might respond to my post by pointing out that all PrC usage is subject to DM approval, so let me preemptively point out that splatbook usage is generally subject to DM approval as well. Thus, a DM is well-covered with regard to monks and other classes that might also offer wisdom bonuses to AC.

This equine is in need of 5000 gp in diamonds . . .

 

[irdeggman]

So this vocabulary is specifically defined in the book.

Good point.

I still don't think it is a bonus "type" since it isn't listed in the DMG with all of the bonus types at the time.

The issues we are talking about are class abilities and they specifically stack unless otherwise stated.

Class Features: A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes. (Exception: A character who acquires the barbarian class does not become illiterate.)

In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3.

In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced barbarians and experienced rogues have the same ability. When a barbarian/rogue would gain uncanny dodge a second time (for her second class), she instead gains improved uncanny dodge, if she does not already have it. Her barbarian and rogue levels stack to determine the rogue level an attacker needs to flank her.

In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor, Intelligence score, and special abilities.

 

[glass]

A good example to illustrate some differences is a Paladin's Divine Grace, and a Blackguard's Dark Blessing.

At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

Note the difference.

I think Hyp has explained this better in previous threads on the subject. IMO, the little sidetrack into whether a '(ability score) bonus' counts as a named bonus type or not is a red herring.

In the case of the Blackguard's ability, for example, you get to add your Charisma bonus. Whether or not that stacks with another Charisma bonus is irrelevant, because you don't have another Charisma bonus: you only have one!

So, there is no stacking issue, because there is nothing to stack. Its like asking if two invisibility spells stack. The second spell makes you invisible, and if you already are invisible then you still are; the spell doesn't make you doubly invisible.


glass.