D&D 4E What would you want to see in 4e?

[Belen]

I thought you had me there for a second, but then I realised the reason I was so offhand was that I had already addressed the point:

* Armour that reduces damage, but a system thought out and designed from scratch to be that way, rather than the conversion from AC to DR in UA. Probably with variable DR, a la Alternity or Iron Heroes.
* DoS of attack roll added to base damage, obviating the need for damage to be rolled separately and freeing up a die roll for the armour reduction.

EDIT: You said 'example'. If you have spotted any other logical fallacies please let me know. I am always looking to improve my debating skills.


glass.

#1: The fallacy here that what you want does not exist. You are arguing for a mythical system. Armor as DR is the pet love of a lot of gamists, but if it is such a good mechanic, then why is it not the standard?

#2: So you want to make damage standard and replace one roll for another? This will still increase time spent in combat. DR means that less damage will be done per hit. Thus, it takes longer to kill something. You either have to increase damage or decrease hit points. Either way, armor as DR radically alters the game of D&D.

If you want armor as DR so badly, then there are games for you. You do not need to play D&D.

And again, I find it funny that you refuse to argue your point that DR is better than AC.

 

[Zjelani]

Yes, but this is a stupid mechanic. It requires yet another roll in the game and adds needless complexity to combat.

Wow, this is definitely ironic - a thread about 4e gets hijacked by another topic!

It really seems to me that this is matter is a subjective preference. Despite what some people think, there's nothing inherently wrong with Armor as DR that isn't based on some personal opinion. However, there's also nothing utterly magical about it that makes combat more realistic either. It really comes down to people's preference for simplicity vs. realism. Some fall on one side of the line, some fall on the other. Armor as AC vs. Armor as DR straddles that line.

For some people that added complexity could make it more interesting, but for others its added complexity without added benefit. I'm tempted to give it a try sometime to see how much it really adds much fun vs. how much more effort it takes and make up my mind based on actual play. As Sean says in the linked article, "I'm just saying it'll take a lot of work ... more work than it's worth to most people."

For some people it is worth the extra work, and others it isn't. I'm thinking the majority of D&D players agree that it's not worth it. Just calling it a "stupid mechanic" because you personally don't see the value is awfully close minded.

 

[Belen]

For some people it is worth the extra work, and others it isn't. I'm thinking the majority of D&D players agree that it's not worth it. Just calling it a "stupid mechanic" because you personally don't see the value is awfully close minded.

You are correct. I changed my comment.

 

[glass]

So you refuse to support your view that DR is better than AC.

I don't need to. I never said it was better, I said I'd prefer it. You have been trying to argue that it is objectively worse and I have been calling you on it.

You miss the entire point of SKR's commentary when he explains how armor as DR would fundamentally alter the way D&D is played and how it works.

Well duh! It would hardly be worth calling for a change that wouldn't alter the way D&D was played, would it? Therefore, I don't really think that that is the point of SKR's rant.

And that doesn't alter the fact that given #2 is most certainly not a given.


glass.

 

[glass]

But have they taken more time because of the DR?

Yes.

Actually that was a rhetorical question. Somehow, I knew your answer would be 'yes'.

EDIT: And what game were you playing that had damage-reducing armour, but was otherwise similar enough to D&D that you could make that assesment, becuase it sounds like it would suit me very well.


glass.

 

[glass]

#1: The fallacy here that what you want does not exist. You are arguing for a mythical system. Armor as DR is the pet love of a lot of gamists, but if it is such a good mechanic, then why is it not the standard?

Do you actually understand GNS theory, or are you just latching onto 'gamist' as a handy insult for anyone who disagrees with you?

#2: So you want to make damage standard and replace one roll for another? This will still increase time spent in combat. DR means that less damage will be done per hit. Thus, it takes longer to kill something. You either have to increase damage or decrease hit points. Either way, armor as DR radically alters the game of D&D.

Having weapons do a little more damage per hit 'radically alters the game of D&D'? You have a much broader definition of 'radically alters' than I do!

If you want armor as DR so badly, then there are games for you. You do not need to play D&D.

I don't need to play D&D, but I want to, and I also want to express my opinion about how it could be improved (from my PoV). That is, after all, what the thread was started for.

And again, I find it funny that you refuse to argue your point that DR is better than AC.

Because my point is not that it's better, it is that it is not (as you argue) worse. I find damage-reducing armour more believable, but I am aware that is subjective opinion and not something that can be the basis of objective debate.

Your assertion that it necessarily requires additional record keeping, OTOH is a statement of fact that despite repeated requests you have failed to substantiate. So, I'll ask you again: What extra record keeping is require with an damage-reducing armour system? Name one item!



glass.

 

[tensen]

If you sign up as a Bastion Press playtester, you will find Jim's Metamagic article in the Files section.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/bp-playtest/

Do you let just anyone sign up?

 

[Belen]

Your assertion that it necessarily requires additional record keeping, OTOH is a statement of fact that despite repeated requests you have failed to substantiate. So, I'll ask you again: What extra record keeping is require with an damage-reducing armour system? Name one item!

And I have already answered this question multiple times. It requires additional combat record-keeping. Everyone must remember how much DR exists and must subtract it "on the fly" during combat. Additionally, they will have to differentiate between items or materials that penetrate DR etc. Under some rules, it may even require additional rolls to determine how much DR exists per hit.

This is added to any and all other conditional modifiers and effects exist during the combat.

 

[tensen]

And I have already answered this question multiple times. It requires additional combat record-keeping. Everyone must remember how much DR exists and must subtract it "on the fly" during combat. Additionally, they will have to differentiate between items or materials that penetrate DR etc. Under some rules, it may even require additional rolls to determine how much DR exists per hit.

This is added to any and all other conditional modifiers and effects exist during the combat.

Tons of conditional modifiers in play already, yes it adds to the calculations, but it may be worth it. Then again it might not.

Can have a whole thread on this aspect alone.

For me, my version of 4e will have all the rules I've written and published. Okay maybe not.
I know like many other designers we make things that we wish existed in the normal rules, but then again many of them are for niche instances, and you can likely do without them. I like flavor, not generic blather. So the revamping that many have suggest would likely turn me way off. For the same reason that while I one an absolute ton of GURPS products, I used it so little. Generic will sell the game possibly to hard core.. but it will lose the new audience of the next generation of gamers.

 

[Ghostwind]

Do you let just anyone sign up?

Yep. Hopefully they will also read the messages and provide feedback for the stuff we need tested (like Castlemorn)...