D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Vocenoctum]

Besides - personally I never saw a PC decker. They were always "A guy who does X and also decks". And making a rigger-decker was by far the most popular choice, for good reasons (the requirements for both were basically identical - good computer skill, high mental stats, not much else needed).

I had two myself, and every SR game I ran in had one. I've always found them no harder to integrate than having a mage and a samurai togethor. Rigger's with telepresence were easy to integrate.

My response as a GM would be "you can't - you need to have a success on a test before you can buy successes on it". Then we'd look at the karma rules for open tests, and realise that karma ONLY LETS YOU REROLL ONE DIE ON AN OPEN TEST. Ouch. Change that rule for starters.

Right, can't buy a success unless you make one. But we're not talking Open Tests. Just tests with extreme T#'s.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

At least in half the shadow running teams I've seen a PC decker. At least half of those guys were also primarily deckers.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I just do my best to keep from commenting. It's a lot more amusing/interesting that way. I've been attempting to do the same here, but sadly Vocenoctem managed to accidentally bait me upthread. My bad.

Yes, I am a Master Ba... er forget it.

There's just no way to respond and have it turn out well when people are upset and really predisposed to be annoyed with whatever you say by association... and right now, that's happening a lot. Change is never easy, and no matter what you do there will be some who won't like it, as it doesn't suit their vision of the game or their style of play. That's perfectly valid, but doesn't make the changes any easier.

The idea that I, and other SR Loyalists, are resistant to the coming changes kind of misses the point though really. We've seen the way FanPro has handled the property, and don't like it. When we bring up our complaints, we're told "then don't buy it" or, in your case, that Rules Ninja's won't kick in our doors.

The simple fact is, from previous discussions, most of the FanPro loyalists won't acknowledge the path the game has taken. So while I'm sure you think you'll never change my mind, the simple fact is that it goes both ways. As a customer, I've already stated my concerns, and been told that they aren't true.

The threats/comments involving personal violence are always entertaining, anyway.

I'm hoping you don't mean me, since I never threaten folks. But, online threats are only worth the paper they're printed on.
Years ago I was threatened for defending SR to a Btech fan. I still remember the event fondly.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I guess we have been playing Shadowrun 1E all wrong, then.

Playing criminals has been a big part from the start. And while running for a "higher cause" might be nice, ultimately the runners strive to make the world a better place for the runners.

See, it doesn't matter how you or I play the game. If I used all the material for a Cyberpirates game, that's my prerogative.
The point is, the setting was once such a view. Shadowrun was not just GTA:SR, it was involved and heroic, in it's own way. Shadowrunners were a good sense of what I considered an Anti-Hero of sorts.

They still are - but they and their secret backers, the Human Nation, have become only more dangerous over the years...

but now, your mercenaries work with them as much as against them.

They still are. Have you been paying attention to what is happening in the Yucatan these days? Sure, it doesn't neccessarily involve summoning demons, but that doesn't make it any less evil...

Aztlan has it's bad moments, Aztechnology is not as connected as once before.
That all went away in favor of more "realism".

Is there any place anywhere where bugs have civil rights?

Hey, if there's a Ghoul Nation, I'm sure bugs have the vote somewhere!

Who says that he has gotten away with it? Lofwyr is a dragon, and thus he can afford to be patient with his revenge. My guess is that he has a very special and spectacular object lession in mind for him.

Lofwyr has a mean streak. He has had numerous setbacks from a single source, and is reacting slowly. He's not biding his time, he's failing to react. (From the material I've read, up through SoE) And come on... Spinrad? SPINRAD!

Perhaps Spinrad suspects this as well, and simply hopes to do as much damage to Lofwyr as possible before he goes down...

Perhaps Spinrad is an EgoPC from someone's home game, and never should have seen print? That's just off-the-cuff though.

 

[Vocenoctum]

(regarding sales)
It still is, at least where I live. Around here, the popularity of Shadowrun doesn't lag far behind that of D&D...

Right, Germany's market has held strong, or perhaps even increased. Meanwhile, the US market has declined. That's what I mentioned before.

The new feel is directed that way, and being rewarded with new sales in Europe. The new feel is also causing some of us to give up on the game. And some of us are quite the SR Completionists, well, we were.

If the new sales outnumber the lost sales, then by all means, more power to them. That would be quite the arguement to bring into these discussions, but instead it comes down to whether a change is really a "change" or not.

 

[TwistedBishop]

Everyone? How many people actually constitutes "everyone"? Is this the internet version of "everyone" where those malcontents ranting the loudest are deemed to represent the attitude of the majority?

I think you might have missed the point again. In the case of VR2.0 and R2 complaints, everyone = no one.

Taking the decker and making it wireless is converting it into a wizard? Is this just more idle speculation about a system that little is currently known about? If you have more details about the decker/hacker transition, by all means sharre.

Just more idle reading of the press release. My use of the term "hacker wizard" comes directly from FanPro: "Matrix 2.0! An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards."

 

[Gundark]

I don't. I don't think you could pull off Shadowrun very well at all in d20. There are some things that d20 just cannot do, and this is one of them.

I disagree. I Mutants and Masterminds would be a great engine to d20 Shadowrun

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

More possible ways of generating randomness using the same basic stat block are always good.

I respectfully disagree. Changing the basic mechanic in mid-stream is bad. It's like AD&D2, where the dice worked one way depending on what you were doing, and another way on another task.

Plus, great spikes of randomness are annoying.

Brad

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

At least in half the shadow running teams I've seen a PC decker. At least half of those guys were also primarily deckers.

Ironically, lately we've been seeing characters in movies who can be described as deckers or security riggers...like in National Treasure, the various Mission Impossibles, etc.

Brad

 

[Storyteller01]

Uggh. I tire of hearing that assertion, especially as vague and unsupported as it typically is. There's nothing in the SR setting that d20 can't handle. There's nothing about playing a shaman or street samurai or hacker tackling monsters and corporations in post-modern America that can't be done in d20. In fact, they already did it in Urban Arcana to a large extent. And we just found out that d20 Cyberspace will be out later this year. Guess nobody's told the folks at WotC that it can't be done in d20.

No, you probably can't have a mage who's better with a pistol or sword than a merc, which is what everyone brings up right away in discussing a d20 SR conversion, but that's the system not the setting.

Not so much that it can't handle it, as it changes the feel of the game. AEG converting L5R to d20 is a good example. It's also one of the reasons L5R's new edition will not be done in d20.