D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Storyteller01]

Hehe, that's not all. In Shadowrun, abilties take a much different roll then in D20. Strength in SR doesn't tell you just how hard you hit someone, it tells you how high your melee skills can be. It would be like saying that a fighter with a strength of 14 in D&D would have a capped BAB of 14, while a strength 28 ogre could have up to a +28 BAB.

Also, SR skills are rolled with varying number of d6s. This drasticaly changes the skill resolution mechanic. Someone with Pistols 3 would roll 3d6. That gives a range of 3-18, with the bell curve making the average roll 10 or 11. In d20, every number has an equal 5% chance of coming up. 1 is as likely as 10, and is as likely as 20. This means that you're just as likely to have a phenomical success as you are to have a disaterious failure, if you apply a system with varying degrees of success and failure, like in Shadowrun.

Someone swinging a sword in D&D always has a 5% chance of missing, and a 5% chance of hitting no matter what the defenses of the target is. In Shadowrun, that changes wildly on what the skill is of the person swinging the sword. Someone with a 1d6 skill always has a 1 in 6 chance of utterly failing. If they are trying to hit a target number of 10, though, they have a much, much less chance then that of hitting. They would have to roll a 6, and then roll a 4 or better on the die.

If I was better at math, I could crunch some numbers. But basically it comes to the point that in d20, you can always have a guranteed success at a task. A rogue with a +35 to hide is never going to be seen, even if he's unlucky enough to roll a 1. In d20, skills never fail on a 1. A rogue with a +1 to detect traps is never going to find that 23 DC trap, no matter how hard he tries. In SR, a person with a Computer skill of 10 gets 10d6, but they very well might miss that TN 12 roll they need. On the flip side, someone with Computer 1 might luck out and manage to hit that 12, and get the task done.

Again, it boils down to the point that if you change d20 into something that can pull SR off right, you've changed d20 into SR's native system.

I'll say it again, there's just some things d20 cannot do, and this is one of them.

Haven't read the newest editions yet, but in the first edition a melee attacker could just as easily (depending on your skill) as getting injured yourself. Tends to add to the risk involved

Besides, does EVERY game have to be d20?

 

[Infernal Teddy]

I think you might have missed the point again. In the case of VR2.0 and R2 complaints, everyone = no one.




Just more idle reading of the press release. My use of the term "hacker wizard" comes directly from FanPro: "Matrix 2.0! An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the term "wizard" refer to a great programmer / Codebreaker in the IT / Digital world. Did when I was young, anyway...

 

[Michelle Lyons]

Yes, I am a Master Ba... er forget it.

The idea that I, and other SR Loyalists, are resistant to the coming changes kind of misses the point though really. We've seen the way FanPro has handled the property, and don't like it. When we bring up our complaints, we're told "then don't buy it" or, in your case, that Rules Ninja's won't kick in our doors.

Well, you have to admit that the line "Now they're coming after your games too" was a bit melodramatic, and firmly worthy of a reference to Game Ninjas. I never once said that your complaints were unfounded or somehow unworthy of being heard. It was the histrionics I objected to, along with the blanket statement that the rules all freelancers played were somehow not the actual game but some face of Shadowrun that we were bound and determined to nefariously inflict upon the population at large. You state that you've seen what some freelancers play, and I can't refute that since I don't know you (and you don't state who among the freelancers you've observed or read game accounts from). I still hold, however, that blanket statements are bad and that, as a sometime FanPro freelancer and FASA employee, they were erroneous at least as applies to me.

Those issues, though, are separate from your feelings and concerns about the game.

The simple fact is, from previous discussions, most of the FanPro loyalists won't acknowledge the path the game has taken. So while I'm sure you think you'll never change my mind, the simple fact is that it goes both ways. As a customer, I've already stated my concerns, and been told that they aren't true.

On the contrary. I listen with great interest to dissenting opinion, so long as it isn't couched in such strong emotion that the content is wholly masked. It's quite possible I might be convinced of something. As for trying to convince you... well, I find it is far more effective to simply complete the material to the best I can and let you look at the end result, assuming you are not so entirely set against it as to have the mere existence of the book be a moral affront to you. If you give it a chance and come to like the material, then wonderful. If you end up not liking it, then... well, I'm sorry it turned out that way. Our goal is to make as many current players happy as we can while opening up the game to a new audience and trying to bring it more into step with current game design and technology. We know not everyone will want this. Sometimes you have to take a risk, though, to grow and improve.

I'm hoping you don't mean me, since I never threaten folks. But, online threats are only worth the paper they're printed on.
Years ago I was threatened for defending SR to a Btech fan. I still remember the event fondly.

Nope. Had I anything of the sort to complain about here, I would most certainly have done so already, naming names where appropriate. For that matter, I think Henry might have beaten me to it. So long as the general threats are more venting than personal, they don't bother me, and so far I've not had the latter. It can be a bit disconcerting, though, to be the end target of that sort of hostility on a larger scale, even just online.

I don't post here as a FanPro representative. Really, I think only Adam and Rob and possibly Brian have that sort of weight to their words. I'm a somewhat interested party, but that's the extent of it. Make of that what you will.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I had two myself, and every SR game I ran in had one. I've always found them no harder to integrate than having a mage and a samurai togethor. Rigger's with telepresence were easy to integrate.

A mage and a samurai are no harder to integrate than a guy who is not physically present in the same area, and who's realm in no way resembles the area that the mage and sammy are in??
Riggers with telepresence - no problem. They're still in the same world as the mage and the sammy. Hell, even a projecting mage is still in the same world as the sammy and the rigger. But the decker is off somewhere that doesn't come close to resembling the same world.

I guess if every single building you raid has its network of security cameras connected to the net and a low-grade host running it all, it's easy. Otherwise you're talking about splitting the party.

Add that to the fact that the decker is far better off doing all his stuff in the legwork phase, and you've got one bored player come action time.

Right, can't buy a success unless you make one. But we're not talking Open Tests. Just tests with extreme T#'s.

It was a test for jumping... rules say that's an open test...

 

[Geron Raveneye]

On the contrary. I listen with great interest to dissenting opinion, so long as it isn't couched in such strong emotion that the content is wholly masked. It's quite possible I might be convinced of something. As for trying to convince you... well, I find it is far more effective to simply complete the material to the best I can and let you look at the end result, assuming you are not so entirely set against it as to have the mere existence of the book be a moral affront to you. If you give it a chance and come to like the material, then wonderful. If you end up not liking it, then... well, I'm sorry it turned out that way. Our goal is to make as many current players happy as we can while opening up the game to a new audience and trying to bring it more into step with current game design and technology. We know not everyone will want this. Sometimes you have to take a risk, though, to grow and improve.

That's exactly what I'm planning to do...take a look at the material, and see if I like it, or not. I most likely won't use it, except if it blows me away with its simplicity and ability to retrofit it to older material, though, as I'm pretty happy with the way I've houseruled SR 1 so far, which wasn't too hard either. But from a fan perspective, I simply have to take a look at the complete reworking of the game that stole me away from D&D for a few years. Even if I have to admit to being sceptical about the changes still fitting in my views of how Shadowrun should feel...but I can't say for sure before I've taken a look at it, can I? Just that blurb about hackers makes me think "Low Sci-Fi" instead of "Gritty cyberpunk"...but we'll see.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

A mage and a samurai are no harder to integrate than a guy who is not physically present in the same area, and who's realm in no way resembles the area that the mage and sammy are in??
Riggers with telepresence - no problem. They're still in the same world as the mage and the sammy. Hell, even a projecting mage is still in the same world as the sammy and the rigger. But the decker is off somewhere that doesn't come close to resembling the same world.

Don't know about that...an astrally projecting mage can be as "off-world" as a decker can be. They both take time, and it always depends on how detailed GM and player want to make it. And one of the precepts of Shadowrun's matrix system was that nearly everything that wasn't ultra-high security stuff was connected to the matrix at some level. Why? Because it was cheaper to set up one network all over the building than three separate ones, and it was cheaper to connect stuff to the matrix and transfer data like that instead of lugging around big heaps of opto-chips each time you wanted to update your OS. And cheap was one of the motifs in SR...cheap stuff for inflated prices for an unthinking consumer made by corporations that only want to raise their annual revenues without caring about the human element, or quality checks, or national laws.

 

[apesamongus]

I respectfully disagree. Changing the basic mechanic in mid-stream is bad. It's like AD&D2, where the dice worked one way depending on what you were doing, and another way on another task.

Well, those were different dice mechanics that produced the same distribution. That's stupid. And saying "changing the basic mechanic" is misleading. There is nothing that makes one mechanic more "basic" than another. You can easily have multiple base mechanics - and most games do.

 

[apesamongus]

Don't know about that...an astrally projecting mage can be as "off-world" as a decker can be.

"can be" != "absolutely always is"

Yes, you can run a projecting mage in such a way as to cause problems. Or you can run him together with the rest of the party just as easily. The decker doesn't have those options (or, at the very least, it requires much more work)

 

[Vocenoctum]

A mage and a samurai are no harder to integrate than a guy who is not physically present in the same area, and who's realm in no way resembles the area that the mage and sammy are in??
Riggers with telepresence - no problem. They're still in the same world as the mage and the sammy. Hell, even a projecting mage is still in the same world as the sammy and the rigger. But the decker is off somewhere that doesn't come close to resembling the same world.

See, the assumption is that a pure decker is immobile here. My mages knew how to use a gun, so did my deckers. (except for the Otaku, but he'd just blast away with the AK anyway, was still fun.) The decker is With You, until he enters the matrix, just as the scout is With You until he sneaks off. Integrating a challenge for these characters was as easy as integrating a challenge that would equally work with a mage and his spells, as well as a Samurai and his wires. Saying the decker was limited is no different than saying the Face is, his skills are mainly useful in limited circumstances best served by not having other party members blather on while he's working his charms.

SR is full of situational power disparity, just like it's full of characters that wander off for indefinite periods of time. It's part of the game, and most RPG's have similar circumstances.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Well, you have to admit that the line "Now they're coming after your games too" was a bit melodramatic, and firmly worthy of a reference to Game Ninjas. I never once said that your complaints were unfounded or somehow unworthy of being heard. It was the histrionics I objected to, along with the blanket statement that the rules all freelancers played were somehow not the actual game but some face of Shadowrun that we were bound and determined to nefariously inflict upon the population at large. You state that you've seen what some freelancers play, and I can't refute that since I don't know you (and you don't state who among the freelancers you've observed or read game accounts from). I still hold, however, that blanket statements are bad and that, as a sometime FanPro freelancer and FASA employee, they were erroneous at least as applies to me.

Blanket statements are mandatory here on ENWorld, it is assumed that the people that don't fit the blanket statement will know they don't and not mind. (j/k)

I don't generally specifically direct comments at named folks, because it serves no purpose other than insulting.. I generally don't directly attack a person, merely comment on the work they put forth and direct influences there.

I do think the comment was accurate though. Not in the sense that Game Ninja's will ruin an individuals game, but because the elements that given folks buy the game for will be changed.There is no Nefarious schem, but I do think it's a matter of not seeing what folks bought Shadowrun for. Perhaps Boyle could post a list of what the basic elements of SR that define it for the team working on it, the Sacred Cows as it were, to the website. The current FAQ reads more like a forum posting than actual info about the game.

On the contrary. I listen with great interest to dissenting opinion, so long as it isn't couched in such strong emotion that the content is wholly masked. It's quite possible I might be convinced of something. As for trying to convince you... well, I find it is far more effective to simply complete the material to the best I can and let you look at the end result, assuming you are not so entirely set against it as to have the mere existence of the book be a moral affront to you.

As I mentioned, based on the past products FanPro has produced for Shadowrun, I will not be buying it. I generally order online, via Stiggybaby's, and can't look at a book before buying it. There are a couple other folks that will be looking it over, and if the reviews from them are excellent, than maybe I will buy it in the future. So, simply completing the material ISN'T enough, because to read that material, I would need to buy the book, understand? Convinced needs to be done by posts refuting bad parts and talking about why this edition is better, but more directly, the website stuff has to be more explanatory. There's still months to go though, but really if there's any chance of a GenCon release, this material should already be pretty well formed.

If you give it a chance and come to like the material, then wonderful. If you end up not liking it, then... well, I'm sorry it turned out that way. Our goal is to make as many current players happy as we can while opening up the game to a new audience and trying to bring it more into step with current game design and technology. We know not everyone will want this. Sometimes you have to take a risk, though, to grow and improve.

I think the missing element there is older player that were lost by FanPro. Regaining players by looking back over what changes have been made in SR3 (including before FanPro took over) and where the players were lost would be a good start.
A general point though: FanPro has continued FASA's "blind dart throwing" approach to release scheduling. Releases are erratic and that hurts any game.

I don't post here as a FanPro representative. Really, I think only Adam and Rob and possibly Brian have that sort of weight to their words. I'm a somewhat interested party, but that's the extent of it. Make of that what you will.

you may not be a "company representative", but if you're correcting folks on the game or writers, you are representing them. You should be either more involved or resistant to baiting, but I think more involved makes more sense. The Dumpshock crew really ends up being self-indulgent in these matters, and not really very effective outside their home.