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D&D 4E Why 4E?

Dark Jezter

First Post
nothing to see here said:
Don't forget their antipathy of the 'suits'...a combination of anxiety that their hobby is also an industry...a fear that those in control of this industry are non-gamers who don't respect the hobby...and a fundamental belief that, just by being big fans of a game, they can make better marketing decisions than any business-type...no matter what their education or experience
This syndrome isn't exclusive to gamers, either. I've lost count of how many times I've seen Star Wars fans claim that they could do a better job than George Lucas simply because they're fans of the original trilogy. Of course, they always seem to draw a blank when you ask them to list their previous filmmaking expirience. :)

Strangely, geeks often assume that knowing a lot about a particular subject (RPGs, fantasy, sci-fi, etc) automatically makes them experts on things like production, marketing, writing, etc.
 

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nothing to see here said:
Don't forget their antipathy of the 'suits'...a combination of anxiety that their hobby is also an industry...a fear that those in control of this industry are non-gamers who don't respect the hobby...and a fundamental belief that, just by being big fans of a game, they can make better marketing decisions than any business-type...no matter what their education or experience

Well, the typical gamer's antipathy towards "suits" is well justified IMO.

Remember "she who shall not be named", who owned TSR and made D&D while openly expressing her contempt for the people who play it. Remember how corporate mechinations forced TSR away from Gygax and into the hands of corporate "suits" who didn't know the game and didn't really care about it. These same non-gamers who earned TSR the nicknames of "They sue regularly" and "T$R" for their overaggressive copyright policies that sued fans for posting a homebrew spell or class on their website?

Those wonderful professional marketing decisions included removing "Demons", "Devils", and Assassins from D&D to placate the Religious Right, the flop of Dragon Dice, the fizzle of Spellfire and SAGA Dragonlance 5th Age. Remember Ryan Dancey's famous open letter about saving D&D, and even he remarked with sadness about reading the corporate minutes of TSR and how they morphed from the notes of gamers who loved the game into the terse dictation of lawyers with no connection to gaming? Just because you have an MBA doesn't mean you're competent to produce something with as much tradition and eccentricities as D&D, you need to know the field and know it's traditions and practices. The business world is littered with the corpses of companies run by executives who didn't know the field they were in and didn't think it mattered because "all companies run the same".

So, many gamers consider "suits" to be the enemy, because in the past they have been antagonistic to gaming and their "professional" business skill nearly drove the game into oblivion, and gamers know that those "suits" don't want a better written, better designed game, they want whatever will sell the most units, and if that they thought that meant turning D&D into a boardgame they'd do it in a heartbeat and tell us "tough". At the absolute best, they are uneasy allies, because they do not share our interests and at best their goals can be compatible with ours (the success and proliferation of D&D, but how it succeeds and proliferates is room for major contention).

We were lucky that WotC, before it was owned by Hasbro, rescued D&D from the wreckage of TSR and gave us a well written, heavily playtested, open-source version of D&D. We fear that the game may fall into a slump of mismanagement and there won't be anybody to ride to the rescue.

This is the real fear of 4e, the fear that businessmen with the legal rights to the game will produce an edition that sullies the name of D&D in a blatant cash-grab, and that we as the gaming public will be stuck with a new and worse game in-print and seeing something we care deeply about wrecked while we have little recourse.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
wingsandsword said:
Remember "she who shall not be named", who owned TSR and made D&D while openly expressing her contempt for the people who play it. Remember how corporate mechinations forced TSR away from Gygax and into the hands of corporate "suits" who didn't know the game and didn't really care about it.

Interestingly, most of the gamers I know don't[/] remember her. They don't know she ever existed. They have no real information about the business machinations within TSR. Many of them came to gaming after TSR ceased to be, or started gaming with White Wolf. But still, they fear the "suit".

I think "suits" are a general icon in Western culture at this point. They're a modern incarnation of "the devil". You don't need actual relevant history to get people to think things are all done for money.
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
"The devil"? They're more like "the spoilers," though they have their uses in the industry.

"She Who Shall Not Be Named" is a hypocrite, coming to lead a RPG company when she does not give a damn about RPG in general. I'm certain she had some agenda of turning the company into some Buck Rogers merchandising outlet for the Dille Estate.
 

Dark Jezter

First Post
Ranger REG said:
"The devil"? They're more like "the spoilers," though they have their uses in the industry.

Yeah, as a scapegoat whenever a RPG company goes under. ;)

It actually reminds me of the old saying about football "Players win games, coaches lose games" referring to the double standard that whenever a football team has a winning season, all of the glory goes to the players. However, when a football team has a losing season, the coach gets blamed.

In the RPG industry, that phrase could be modified to go "Gamers make successful companies, suits make unsuccessful companies." :p
 

MoogleEmpMog

First Post
wingsandsword said:
Well, the typical gamer's antipathy towards "suits" is well justified IMO.

Is it?

TSR was horribly mismanaged. Bad business practices, little understanding of the industry, ludicrous 'introductory' concepts and terrible PR from an overly vocal upper management sent the company spiraling into financial ruin.

But a lot of gamers love what came out of TSR in that period. Not 2e, per say, but the work that came out of it.

ENWorld regularly extols the virtues of Planescape, though I personally can't stand it. Dark Sun and Spelljammer each captured a very dedicated fanbase. Al Quadim is very well thought of. Many long for a return to the fluff-heavy sourcebooks that graced all the settings in 2e.

I for one was quite fond of the Buck Rogers XXV line, even if its existence was driven by questionably ethical connections between "she who shall not be named" and the owners of that license. I wish TSR had continued it.

As a game and a business, D&D is much better off now than it was then. But those 2e suits presided over a goodly amount of what the same gamers who curse their names consider the best role-playing inspiration D&D ever had.
 

fanboy2000

Adventurer
MoogleEmpMog said:
I for one was quite fond of the Buck Rogers XXV line, even if its existence was driven by questionably ethical connections between "she who shall not be named" and the owners of that license. I wish TSR had continued it
I didn't ever see the game, but I read a few of the books. I always found it weird that Buck Rogers wasn't the star of his own novels.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Dark Jezter said:
Yeah, as a scapegoat whenever a RPG company goes under. ;)

It actually reminds me of the old saying about football "Players win games, coaches lose games" referring to the double standard that whenever a football team has a winning season, all of the glory goes to the players. However, when a football team has a losing season, the coach gets blamed.

That would seem to depend on which football you're talking about. Alex Ferguson (Man Utd), Clive Woodward (England rugby union), Rod Macqueen (Austrian rugby union) and Wayne Bennett (Brisbane Broncos rugby league) are/were all coach/manager superstars....
 


wingsandsword said:
Well, the typical gamer's antipathy towards "suits" is well justified IMO.

Remember "she who shall not be named", who owned TSR and made D&D while openly expressing her contempt for the people who play it. Remember how corporate mechinations forced TSR away from Gygax and into the hands of corporate "suits" who didn't know the game and didn't really care about it. These same non-gamers who earned TSR the nicknames of "They sue regularly" and "T$R" for their overaggressive copyright policies that sued fans for posting a homebrew spell or class on their website?]

And we all know what a wonderful business model that turned out to be ;)...

Why would this mythical group of businesspeople...whom gamers claim to be motivated only by greed, express that greed by repeating a business model that led to an unmitigated finanicial disaster...
 

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