D&D 4E What would you like 4E to look like.

[dougmander]

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's vision for 4e on this thread, and checking it against my own:

1. Make the classes into the strong archetypes they're supposed to be, each playing a unique role in the party. A party of specialist adventurers working together to survive is the core story of D&D, but the easy availabilty of feats in 3e works against this, muddying the distinctions between classes. Fixing this means replacing the elective feat system with ability trees linked to classes, with a few instances of redundancy (some classes might share certain abilities, like evasion, for example).

2. Cut character creation time to 5 minutes by adopting a philosophy of "adaptive radiation": all 1st level characters of a certain class start with the same stats, and diversify as they level up. You would choose your class first, and get a set of ability scores appropriate for the class, rather than rolling for them. For example, have all fighters begin with:

10 hp, 10 Dex, 14 Str, 12 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha; one weapon focus; and either Power Attack (Melee ability tree), Dodge (Maneuver ability tree), or Point Blank Shot (Ranged ability tree).
Instead of one ability boost every 4 levels, start PCs with lower stats and give them a boost every 2 levels.

3. Get rid of assigning skill points. It's an enormous time sink for players and DMs alike. Make class skill checks dependent on class level + key ability modifier, with an option for getting a +2 bonus to two related skills in lieu of advancing one step on the talent tree. For cross-class skills, use a default of character level/3 + key ability modifer.

4. Give level-based AC bonuses, to reduce the dependency on magic items (and associated number crunching) to boost AC.

 

[Jawar]

I liked Doumander's approach:

Start with lower ability stats and improved them more often.

I also liked the Maneuver, Melee and Ranged trees/advancements/whatever concept.

As for assigning skill points, I'd also go for that idea, which was presented in Unearthed Arcana.
It's way more simple!

Oooor...
Simply assign 3 skill levels, just like in feat trees:
- normal (roll ability -5)
- improved (roll ability)
- greater (roll ability +5)

For instance, a minimum of 6 Wizard levels would be required to get "Improved Spellcraft".

Also, simplify all the misc feat concepts around - stances and maneuvers from the Bo9S are great and skill tricks from CS too, but they are a kind of feats, right? Merge all these concepts into feats and give more feats (1 per level as standard) to characters.

And, somehow, is there a chance to cut the ability stats in half?
That way, it would be a breeze to figure what's the bonus for a 32 Strength attribute.

Or tone up abillity mods:

10 would be average and a 15 would have a +5 bonus.
Ahhhmmm... mind me, a 15 Str fighter would be a very strong one indeed!
And a character with Str 5 would be really weak (they already are by the current rules, so?)

Finally, IMHO, the whole multiclassing plus Prestige Class approach would have to be redesigned.

 

[GreatLemur]

Aw, hell, here we go.

Okay, echoing a bunch of folks in this thread, and probably contradicting a few others:

• Fewer, much more flexible classes. When I say fewer, I mean about three or four. Free multiclassing across the board. Also, no more damned prestige classes.
  
  
• Lots more feats--containing many of the abilities that used to be bolted onto character classes--organized more helpfully instead of dumped into one big alphabetic list. Lots of recommended character builds and progressions for a variety of character concepts, and help for the newbs on why they might want to take a given feat. Lots of feat trees and feat prerequisites, but no more semi-worthless feats that are taken only as prerequisites. Feats at every level, at least. No one should ever gain a level without having a real choice to make, and getting something interesting out of it.
  
  
• No more class skills. Niche protection is dead. Let the warrior take Perform (epic poetry) for a reasonable price, if he wants it. For that matter, everyone should get more skill points.
  
  
• As Ari said, consolidate levels, HD, LA, ECL, and CR. Why can't everything just have be levels? For that matter, monster classes and leveled templates would be great, modular, consistent things to include in such a system.
  
  
• Ability score modifiers instead of numbers. They're all we actually use, anyway.
  
  
• Define Wisdom and Charisma better, or replace them with better terms.
  
  
• Kill alignment dead. Please.
  
  
• Why the hell are core rules gnomes still talking to burrowing mammals in 2007? There is no excuse for this.
  
  
• Where possible, move away from character abilities limited by uses per day. A whole lot of people like the Warlock class model and Tome of Battle maneuver mechanics a lot better than Vancian magic, and who can blame them?
  
  
• No more material components for spells, except where they're actually expensive or rare enough to be a balancing factor for the spell. Has anybody ever thought that stuff was cool or interesting?
  
  
• Less focus on traps and animal sidekicks. It's strictly personal taste, but I ain't interested.
  
  
• Armor reduces damage done by hits, while dodging and parrying prevent hits from happening.
  
  
• Weapon stats really need to be balanced. No more of this longswords-as-special-gift-to-math-perverts business. Weapons as special effects would be nice. No more "exotic" weapons that are harder to qualify for simply due to non-European flavor.
  
  
• No more assumption that every campaign is magic item Christmas. Also, I'd rather see a more flexible system for magic item creation, something in the vein of Arcana Evolved. And spending XP on magic item creation is just a horrible thing to expect. Some kind of rare material would make more sense, flavor wise, and also be less punishing, and more controlable by the DM.
  
  
• Actually, I'd like to see experience points go away completely.
  
  
• Some form of action points really need to make it into the core rules, as well as skill and combat stunts, and Feng Shui-esque bonuses for cool action descriptions. Action points should be given out as roleplay rewards, and should either have a low cap or disappear at the end of each session (incentive that they should be spent, not hoarded).
  
  
• I don't care if the artwork is "classic" fantasy or "dungeonpunk", just so long as it isn't the mix of tired fantasy cliches and misappropriated quasi-historical garb that first edition was plagued with.
  
  
• For God's sake, give us a slick, user-friendly online character generator that can use all the official material. That would lower the biggest barrier-to-entry for a lot of people by quite a bit. Why are people other than WotC doing a better job of making the game playable for newbs? Character creation and advancement in D&D 4E needs to be as simple, intuitive, and pleasant as in World of Warcraft.

 

[jollyninja]

I would like to see an extreme reduction of the implied number of magic items within the game. Also the method of making them. X-gp and Y-xp has never sat well with me. It lacks the cool factor of having to go out and find displacer beast pelts, feathers from a phoenix, vampire tears, grave moss and the like. Needing stuff like that makes for a really easy adventure hook for a DM. Getting gauntlets of ogre power used to mean something, now I just have to figure out weither or not it'll stack with my other bonuses and buff spells. yes/no, wear em or sell the things. I don't think i ever sold a single magical item before the year 2000 and I would like to see a return to that paradigm.

Fewer classes, more options within those classes. I want every class to work like the fighter. you get "one or more ability chosen from list X" at certian levels or even at every level. fold all class abilities into feats but leave them off the classes bonus list if they are not a typical selection for that class. Have a certian number that are "general" feats. if i want my fighter to have a familiar or animal companion why is that a problem? if my wizard want's to take weapon specialization, why not? it's a really suboptimal choice for me, what's the harm? essentially I would like to see them take their hands off what abilities my character gets at each level and put that choice in my grubby little mitts.

this would allow new concepts to be introduced in the simple mechanic of a feat tree, No prc's required, no new base classes required, just new feat chains to represent specialized training that a character can either start with or go out and get if he wants it. It takes up less space then a new class, making it so you can scratch the crunch junkie's itch and still have plenty of page count for the guy who's looking for a hit of fluff. Feat chains can be the 4e answer to the kits of previous editions. prerequisites can be used to maintain balance.

I do not and never have liked vancian magic. A spell point system is simply easier to deal with. I also want divine magic, bardic and arcane to feel different in some way, Oh, and down with generic buff spells!!!!!!!!!

as for skills, i really wish they would just take iron heroes and make it 4e in that regard. At least use it for their inspiration.

 

[Rothe]

I asked this same question in August, 05.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=145208

I still maintain I want to see:
* Armor as Damage Reduction
* Spell point casting system
* Cutting back on the number of core classes
* Removing all half-races from the game
* Clean and concise instructions on how to create balanced game mechanics like feats, magic items, prestige classes, etc.

Me too. Except for prestige classes, nix 'em I say; open certain bonuses, feats etc. to those with certain minimum ability scores instead.

When I really think on it, I want an amalgam of The Fantasy Trip and D&D. The first three above being quintessential TFT.

 

[Jawar]

I cannot disagree with ONE single item of the last 3 posts. No one.
Furthermore, the nixing of the PrCs: I could not agree more.
As to the half-races, I'm not saying they would not exist, but they should number for much less. And nooo, no half-dragon half-fiend sorts whatsoever.

«Aw, hell, here we go»

GreatLemur, speaking your mind is like voting:
- one more does not make a whole lot difference; but not speaking at all makes absolutely no difference.

 

[Kaodi]

If you don't like over reliance on magic items, why not just give Vow of Poverty or a similar feat for free?

 

[Jawar]

If you don't like over reliance on magic items, why not just give Vow of Poverty or a similar feat for free?

That is THE most BROKEN feat in the history of all D&D EVER.

 

[Droogie]

I'd love to see the game weighted back towards low to mid-level play....just like it was in both 1e and 2e. The experience progression should be tweaked to encourage this. The notion that characters should go up a level every 13 encounters is just plain wrong -- the number of encounters required to go up a level should gradually increase as the power level of the characters increases. This implies that the amount of experience required to level should increase exponentially, while the XP value of encounters should increase in a linear manner.

It's not that I hate high-level play. It's just that the flavour of mid-level games (levels 6-12) are where the flavour of D&D really shines.

I liked how 3e tried to make all 20 levels playable, its just that they dropped the ball after about 12th level. They could work on that.

I'd like to see a D&D4e have explicit basic & advanced modes. Much like Gurps 3/e (haven't taken a close look at 4/e yet) had the basic & advanced combat chapters, but throughout--not just for combat. You should be able to start with the basic system & add-in/cherry-pick whatever bits you like from the advanced parts.

I've thought about this too. It would be nice if 4e had explicit rules-light and rules-heavy guidelines right in the same book. Easier said than done, I'll bet.

Aw, hell, here we go....

Good post. Although, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, people seem to keep describing True20, myself included. Maybe Green Ronin should make a bid for the D&D license?

 

[Greg K]

Good post. Although, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, people seem to keep describing True20, myself included. Maybe Green Ronin should make a bid for the D&D license?

I would love to see GR get the license.