D&D 3E/3.5 The impact of revised 3E on monster design

[Geocorona]

There could be a problem with over-reducing monster classes.

BAB tables and Good Saves would probably have to be linked to subtypes rather than main types under this system, which might not reduce complexity.

Giant could easily be absorbed by Humanoid because they have the same BAB and HD type, and Humanoid is flexible with Good Saves. Fey would have to make both a HD type and a BAB exception, which doesn't cleanly fit it as a subtype of Humanoid.

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Another thought. By subtyping "giant", you could also make a Monstrous Humanoid (Giant) and get a better BAB for the more fiercesome giants.

Dwarfs could still get their bonus against anything with a "giant" subtype.

 

[BOZ]

i think we should just make it simple, and all creatures in D&D will forevermore be Animals.

seriously, some of those classes, such as Giant and Draon exist for a reason. largely because they are the original D&D badasses, and as such there have always been magical weapons and more recenlty probably spells and other things intended to specifically defeat them.

 

[Krishnath]

Geo: for the record, I called the idea stupid and idiotic , not you, to be honest I find you to be a very intelligent poster. But I think Boz at least understand why Giants can't be humanoids and why over simplifying the creaturetypes is a bad idea.

Now we probably won't agree on most of the coming changes in the revised books, but as with all things, change is inevitable, and usually for the better. (the Pit Fiend and most likely several other creatures get a much needed powerboost.)

Later,

 

[Geocorona]

All this talk about simplifying might seem off topic, but it really isn't, since that seems to be the direction D&D is taking in regards to monsters.

Being a traditional monster class doesn't seem to be a valid argument for keeping "giant" as one, but I do see that as an argument for why it wasn't subclassed in the first place, and why game designers continue to have blinders on concerning the matter.

Giants have only a few differences:

1) Rock throwing and catching. Easily incorporated as a subclass quality.

2) Fortitude as Good Save. Not an issue, since monster designers set the saves and abilities for Humanoids.

3) Giant language. Like Goblins, a subclass quality.

4) Darkvision. Easily incorporated as a subclass quality.

5) Simple weapon proficiencies. Easily incorporated as a subclass quality.

Give them a better BAB or different HD type and then you'll have a valid reason for making them a main class.

 

[Krishnath]

Those are very good arguments. But personally I'll get quite upset if I wake up one day and find that the Ogre Mage (Oni for everybody!) had become a humanoid, or the Wang-liang, for that matter... But that's probably just me...

 

[Knight Otu]

Maybe they become monstrous humanoids.

Your slivers might be saved from becoming too intelligent. Apparently, SavSpe has some errors in the skill table and should use this table:

Abberation - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Animal - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Construct - NONE
Dragon - (6 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Elemental - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Fey - (6 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Giant - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Humanoid - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Magical Beast - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Monstrous Humanoid - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Outsider - (8 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Plant - NONE
*Undead - (4 + Int) × (HD + 3)

This table was posted in the Unofficial FAQ for Savage Species.

 

[the Jester]

Maybe they become monstrous humanoids.

Your slivers might be saved from becoming too intelligent. Apparently, SavSpe has some errors in the skill table and should use this table:

Abberation - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Animal - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Construct - NONE
Dragon - (6 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Elemental - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Fey - (6 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Giant - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Humanoid - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Magical Beast - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
Monstrous Humanoid - (2 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Outsider - (8 + Int) × (HD + 3)
*Plant - NONE
*Undead - (4 + Int) × (HD + 3)

This table was posted in the Unofficial FAQ for Savage Species.

Is vermin now a subtype? Or just omitted from the list?

 

[Knight Otu]

I guess that it was simply omitted since this list is the one that should have appeared in Savage Species, and Vermin make bad player characters.

 

[Geocorona]

If it were on the list, you can be assured it would say "NONE" on the righthand side.

 

[Geocorona]

And I really don't think anyone but K would be disturbed if Minotaurs and Ogre Magi were both Monstrous Humanoid (Giant) rather than Monstrous Humanoid and Giant, respectively. But it's a trivial distinction, anyway. I was just trying to second-guess the direction of future game changes.