D&D 4E Help with alchemist concept in 4e

[masteraleph]

Is it worth noting the RAW utility of Inferno Oil? RAW it's a standard action to use, but that can be done outside of combat. Meanwhile, it grants a keyword free secondary attack, and according to the RC pg. 97, "If a secondary attack has keywords that differ from those of the primary attack, its keywords are noted in parentheses. Otherwise, the secondary attack has the same keywords." Meaning that the secondary attack therefore takes on the Weapon or Implement keyword, so it's generally going to be pretty accurate. Nice way of adding fire vulnerability to an enemy once per encounter (and occasionally more, especially with a Timeless Locket).

Note that this is definitely rules lawyering, but it fits nicely on an alchemy based character thematically, and alchemy badly needs some more powerful options mechanically.

 

[Nibelung]

Most alchemical items are basically at-will powers from a controller(at best)

Agree.

Alchemical just never got the support it needed to be worthy being used. As a consumable item that frequently requires two actions (one to draw, one to attack) or more (to retrieve the weapon(s) you released), I would expect them to be at least encounter-level on power.

They're impossible to maintain at expected values. The to-hit requires purchasing the highest level of item, so being able to purchase a higher than expected level item just increases the pain. And damage is never where it ought to be.

Alchemist (theme) ads +2 to hit. Alchemist Savant add Int mod +2. That is a huge to-hit bonus.

I agree with the damage part.

If you have to spend a feat, a paragon path, and a theme, you ought to essentially get something out of it better than what amounts to being a weak controller at-will as a minor action per encounter. Oozemaster gives that at 1st level at just the cost of a theme...

All true. But there is one problem on that line of thought: The player want to play an alchemist.

Sometimes, you know some player concept just don't fit the mold, and you can do better with a different combination. But if the player want to play that specific concept, IMO, you either help them to make the best you can, convince them to use refluff, or try to balance the subpar option with some minor house rule buffs (on the condition that they can be adjusted if you feel you adjusted too much).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's why I suggested that once you get Master Mixer, then all features on Alchemist and Alchemist Savant that affect "alchemical items your level or lower" consider the Master Mixer benefit as well. This allow you to use overlevel alchemical items more frequently without having large issues with the cost.

I don't usually advice house rules, but we are talking about a concept that the system don't support as well, any help it can receive is welcome, if simple refluff is not enough for the player's taste.

I'm not sure cost is the issue. In fact cheaper actually AGGRAVATES the underlying problem. The issue with Alchemy is that if it produces results on par with or better than standard powers, then it undermines the power system (why not just acquire superior alchemical means to do things). Even if its JUST on par it totally trashes the resource management system of 4e (unless its entirely restricted to at-will power level, and even then it produces some unwanted effects). Making the stuff cheap or free just exacerbates this issue. In fact making Alchemy significantly expensive but also substantially effective might be a BETTER solution, however it would require effectively writing a whole new subsystem. Kinda OT of this thread, though its an interesting topic to pursue.

 

[MwaO]

I'm not sure cost is the issue. In fact cheaper actually AGGRAVATES the underlying problem. The issue with Alchemy is that if it produces results on par with or better than standard powers, then it undermines the power system (why not just acquire superior alchemical means to do things). Even if its JUST on par it totally trashes the resource management system of 4e (unless its entirely restricted to at-will power level, and even then it produces some unwanted effects). Making the stuff cheap or free just exacerbates this issue. In fact making Alchemy significantly expensive but also substantially effective might be a BETTER solution, however it would require effectively writing a whole new subsystem. Kinda OT of this thread, though its an interesting topic to pursue.

The problem with cost is very straightforward:
Alchemy Savant gets +Int to hit with an alchemy attack on an AP(aka standard action)
Alchemy Savant gets an encounter power that lets them use an attack as a minor action
Alchemy Theme gives 1 free alchemy item per encounter.

i.e. an Alchemy Savant probably ought to be using 5 alchemy items every 3 encounters or so. It only gets 3 free items, though...

And in the context that alchemy items are basically weak at-wills once you hit Paragon? Um...

That's why the Wand Golf Bag+Arcane Familiar works out really well for an Artificer. The Artificer has his regular powers and then he has a variety of encounter/daily options from his alchemy that mimic Wizard powers. As an example, you could pick up the following items:
+1 Master's Wand of Magic Missile(3rd level item) - Magic Missile 1/encounter that includes a push 1.
+1 Master's Wand of Thunderwave(3rd level item) - Thunderwave as close burst 1/encounter
+1 Wand of 1st level Encounter Power
+2 Wand of Icy Rays(8th level item) - freeze ray
+2 Wand of Precise Color Spray(10th level Item) - adds +1 to hit with Color Spray, critical hit with 1st roll of Color Spray - radiant flamethrower
+4 Wand of Dark Gathering(18th) - tear gas grenade
+4 Wand of Prismatic Burst(18th) - upgraded flash grenade
+5 Wand of Mass Charm(23rd) - confusion gas?
(throw in a wand of utility or 2...)

If you upgrade the items when you're about 8 levels higher than the item, your to-hit with them, assuming a starting Int of 20 won't be that bad. They have an interesting effect in combat and make for a very wide variety of options. I typically consider them a 'I'm a 1st/2nd edition Wizard with spell slots' way of going about things, but easy to refluff into alchemist.

 

[MwaO]

Alchemist (theme) ads +2 to hit. Alchemist Savant add Int mod +2. That is a huge to-hit bonus.

Except it isn't. You need to spend an AP to get that +Int to hit for just the AP attack with an alchemical item. If you're spending an AP and don't have anything better to do with an encounter power or daily power standard, there's another problem...

 

[Nibelung]

Except it isn't. You need to spend an AP to get that +Int to hit for just the AP attack with an alchemical item. If you're spending an AP and don't have anything better to do with an encounter power or daily power standard, there's another problem...

Ok, I read it wrong. I didn't noticed that this bonus was on AP only.

 

[Jhaelen]

Alchemical just never got the support it needed to be worthy being used. As a consumable item that frequently requires two actions (one to draw, one to attack) or more (to retrieve the weapon(s) you released), I would expect them to be at least encounter-level on power.

It depends a lot on the character, how useful alchemical items are. E.g. my sorcerer quite frequently has minor or move actions left which can be used to juggle items. Also, our standard party setup doesn't include a controller, so it's useful to have access to some control-type effects.

Our party's ranger, though, never has any actions left, since he chose a lot of powers that are minor actions, and movement is critical for him to function well in his role.

 

[MwaO]

It depends a lot on the character, how useful alchemical items are. E.g. my sorcerer quite frequently has minor or move actions left which can be used to juggle items. Also, our standard party setup doesn't include a controller, so it's useful to have access to some control-type effects.

Your Sorcerer is going to spend a theme and a paragon path to get a single minor action? Or are you using alchemical items which don't use your Sorcerer bonuses instead of Sorcerer attacks?

In general, if you are a Sorcerer, the fastest way to gain control effects is to simply kill the things dead.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The problem with cost is very straightforward:
Alchemy Savant gets +Int to hit with an alchemy attack on an AP(aka standard action)
Alchemy Savant gets an encounter power that lets them use an attack as a minor action
Alchemy Theme gives 1 free alchemy item per encounter.

i.e. an Alchemy Savant probably ought to be using 5 alchemy items every 3 encounters or so. It only gets 3 free items, though...

And in the context that alchemy items are basically weak at-wills once you hit Paragon? Um...

That's why the Wand Golf Bag+Arcane Familiar works out really well for an Artificer. The Artificer has his regular powers and then he has a variety of encounter/daily options from his alchemy that mimic Wizard powers. As an example, you could pick up the following items:
+1 Master's Wand of Magic Missile(3rd level item) - Magic Missile 1/encounter that includes a push 1.
+1 Master's Wand of Thunderwave(3rd level item) - Thunderwave as close burst 1/encounter
+1 Wand of 1st level Encounter Power
+2 Wand of Icy Rays(8th level item) - freeze ray
+2 Wand of Precise Color Spray(10th level Item) - adds +1 to hit with Color Spray, critical hit with 1st roll of Color Spray - radiant flamethrower
+4 Wand of Dark Gathering(18th) - tear gas grenade
+4 Wand of Prismatic Burst(18th) - upgraded flash grenade
+5 Wand of Mass Charm(23rd) - confusion gas?
(throw in a wand of utility or 2...)

If you upgrade the items when you're about 8 levels higher than the item, your to-hit with them, assuming a starting Int of 20 won't be that bad. They have an interesting effect in combat and make for a very wide variety of options. I typically consider them a 'I'm a 1st/2nd edition Wizard with spell slots' way of going about things, but easy to refluff into alchemist.

I don't think this in any way shape or form contradicts what I said. I was addressing the design considerations around the relative weakness of the Alchemy subsystem. It HAS to be a poor choice as a matter of game design, otherwise it undermines AEDU. I'd note that your Wand solution has limitations as well, all the to-hits will be about 1 point less than normal, and you're paying for a permanent item (even if its a bit below-grade when you buy it, this still adds up). The effects you get aren't BAD, but they also aren't earth-shakingly good. In many cases the powers mentioned have secondary stat bonus effects that you won't get much of, etc. Not saying it isn't worth it, and it certainly is a decent way to reflavor existing material as Alchemy (I also hit on the "this is my spell book" fluff way back around 2008, my utility mage used that some).

To make Alchemy a true option, on a par with other options, really does require that the making of the items be expensive enough to regulate their availability and use. Even then there's a sort of 'burst issue' where the Alchemist can stockpile his tricks and unleash them in a big nova (that just has to be regulated by action economy as much as possible). There could be other ways of balancing this as well, though they probably don't fit too well with 4e's tight regulation of game effects. For instance the ability to give away items to other characters, and even NPCs, or to sell/trade them, are positive mitigations. Negative mitigations could be things like instability (carrying around a lot of dangerous materials, could be hazardous), need for material components, perhaps unreliability (IE Alchemical items could have unpredictable effects, which could make their use problematic in many situations). Another option would be a cost, say for instance it requires the Alchemist to sac an HS to make an item. He can't get the HS back until the item has been used up (similar to the way certain rituals allow permanent effects).

Overall I think the existing design of 4e's Alchemy isn't a bad balancing of design issues. Anyone can utilize it, and the costs are modest, but the effects are also limited.

 

[Tony Vargas]

To the OP, I have to say that, yes, Artificer looks like a good fit. Layer on the alchemy feat and theme mentioned above and it should be fairly evocative.

The idea of a re-skinned Elemental Sorcerer fits the player's stated desired role, but might not fit concept because of the emphasis on CHA instead of INT. It'd be nice to split the difference somehow, but that'd stray out into the realm of extensive house ruling or even a new class - I doubt an Alchemist-Theme Artificer|Sorcerer would shake out as desired.

As far as alchemical items are concerned, the fact they're consumables leaves them 'needing' to be underwhelming for balance reasons.

Rather than trying to gussy up the items, you could tie the alchemical items to powers.

Consider starting with the Elemental Sorcerer, but with two major changes: 1) Swap INT for CHA as the primary stat. 2) Use alchemical items in place of Implements: The alchemical would provide an enhancement bonus based on it's level, and add/replace it's keywords when used for an at-will, and also add it's riders when used for elemental escalation. Just a random thought.