D&D 4E Help with alchemist concept in 4e

[EzekielRaiden]

Yeah, I'd go Artificer. An interesting trick to look at it is getting a Disembodied Hand/Rakshasa Claw familiar, then picking up some Wands of (insert variety of spells here), then refluffling that as your bag of alchemical tricks. That lets the build pick up some Wizard options.

Another choice is to then MC Wizard and do some Wizard power swaps

Interesting idea with the familiar. As for the power swaps: personally, if the DM is already on board with heavy refluffing, I don't see the harm in allowing some cross-class power choices. Especially if it's to a class with a different role. Crossings like that are hard to make OP.

 

[MwaO]

Interesting idea with the familiar. As for the power swaps: personally, if the DM is already on board with heavy refluffing, I don't see the harm in allowing some cross-class power choices. Especially if it's to a class with a different role. Crossings like that are hard to make OP.

Some of the most powerhouse builds involve swapping powers. Examples:
Fighter via Battle Awareness, Rain of Blows+Shock Trooper(Shocking Twister)
Sorcerer+Flame Spiral+Demonskin Adept(Demon-Soul Bolts)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I assume where you said "Alchemist" (underlined above) you meant Artificer? I only ask to make sure the OP doesn't get confused and think there is an Alchemist class in 4e, because (AFAIK) there isn't one.

OOPS! Yep. I meant Artificer.

The only critique I'd give about choosing Psion or Warlock is that both of them are relatively fiddly as far as 4e classes go, the Psion especially. They have the potential to magnify the "oh god what am I doooooing" effect that jumping into a high-level character in an unfamiliar game can create.

I won't say you're entirely wrong, but based on my experiences with both, if you have a strong character concept and stick to it, that problem almost doesn't arise. For me, at least, moments of indecision occurred mainly when an option I thought WOULD work failed miserably, and I had to figure out how to follow up.

Besides, in this case if you multiclass or hybridize, you're probably going to wind up editing out some of the fiddlier bits anyway, since you're going to (presumably) favor the artificer class options because of their relative closeness to the PF Alchemist class.

 

[Nibelung]

I assume where you said "Alchemist" (underlined above) you meant Artificer? I only ask to make sure the OP doesn't get confused and think there is an Alchemist class in 4e, because (AFAIK) there isn't one.

There are two things that are almost a class, if you pick both.

In Dragon 399 there is an Alchemist Theme, that, between other things, can create a free alchemical item every short rest (as long as he or she spend it every encounter).

In Eberron Player's Guide there is an Alchemist Savant Paragon Path, that, between other things, allow you to add your Int modifier to the attack roll of alchemical items.

If the DM (which I assume is the OP) use Artificer as a base class, and allow the player to pick some craft feats that allow crafting of items above the character level (eg, Master Mixer from Eberron Player's Guide), and those feats to affect the class features and powers that work on "alchemical items your level or lower", it might generate a character that match others that don't rely as heavily on consumables.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You CAN buff Alchemy, get some gloves, and there are a few feats that help, the PP that Nibelung mentioned, etc.

OTOH you could really easily refluff the Heroes of the Elemental Chaos version of the Sorcerer (Elementalist). This is a pure blast-em-up type with a very simple power suite (generally ranged and close powers, all of them are pure damage powers). I don't think you can really do any power swapping, but you can still take and buff the alchemist feat, and its perfectly feasible to acquire Ritual Casting as well, if you want, and then you can pick up Brew Potion as well as Enchant Item to make any of a wide variety of consumables that quite easily fit within the Alchemist concept.

You CAN also be a hybrid Executioner/Elementalist, the stat synergy isn't bad, though I don't see any immediately really extraordinary tricks you can optimize. Still, it would give you an option to learn to generate certain poisons, which is cool.

 

[MwaO]

You CAN buff Alchemy, get some gloves, and there are a few feats that help, the PP that Nibelung mentioned, etc.

OTOH you could really easily refluff the Heroes of the Elemental Chaos version of the Sorcerer (Elementalist). This is a pure blast-em-up type with a very simple power suite (generally ranged and close powers, all of them are pure damage powers). I don't think you can really do any power swapping, but you can still take and buff the alchemist feat, and its perfectly feasible to acquire Ritual Casting as well, if you want, and then you can pick up Brew Potion as well as Enchant Item to make any of a wide variety of consumables that quite easily fit within the Alchemist concept.

You CAN also be a hybrid Executioner/Elementalist, the stat synergy isn't bad, though I don't see any immediately really extraordinary tricks you can optimize. Still, it would give you an option to learn to generate certain poisons, which is cool.

In general, Alchemy doesn't especially buff well. It is a lousy theme, Master Mixer is a bad feat, Alchemist Savant isn't a great paragon path - only if a DM somehow rules that you can create a free item with the Alchemy theme and then use the actual value of the item with Alchemist Savant's use component value of existing item does it work. And at that point, you have essentially infinite gold, so the DM shouldn't allow that.

There are also no hybrid Elementalists.

 

[analyst123]

In general, Alchemy doesn't especially buff well. It is a lousy theme, Master Mixer is a bad feat, Alchemist Savant isn't a great paragon path - only if a DM somehow rules that you can create a free item with the Alchemy theme and then use the actual value of the item with Alchemist Savant's use component value of existing item does it work. And at that point, you have essentially infinite gold, so the DM shouldn't allow that.

Guess the DM just need to rule that the alchemical items created in such way cannot be sold... so essentially, you will just have unlimited alchemical items, which isnt really a big deal.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In general, Alchemy doesn't especially buff well. It is a lousy theme, Master Mixer is a bad feat, Alchemist Savant isn't a great paragon path - only if a DM somehow rules that you can create a free item with the Alchemy theme and then use the actual value of the item with Alchemist Savant's use component value of existing item does it work. And at that point, you have essentially infinite gold, so the DM shouldn't allow that.

See, I got very creative with my utility mage, and I discovered that a lot of these items, particularly if you can buff them a little bit, are QUITE useful. Obviously they're not adequate to make the entire shtick of your character, but that isn't necessary.

I mean we did untold havoc to a number of adventures just with blast packs, which can accomplish things that are otherwise quite hard to do.

What I would observe is more that Alchemy and related stuff never was supported well in higher tiers. You can make the same items with better DCs, but the scaling doesn't quite add up. Dropping inherent bonus onto all Alchemical item attack rolls helps some, but the DM really should come up with more higher level items. Perhaps just allowing certain powers to be infused into alchemical items would do it. Truthfully they're VERY close to being competitive with powers.

 

[Nibelung]

In general, Alchemy doesn't especially buff well. It is a lousy theme, Master Mixer is a bad feat, Alchemist Savant isn't a great paragon path

That's why I suggested that once you get Master Mixer, then all features on Alchemist and Alchemist Savant that affect "alchemical items your level or lower" consider the Master Mixer benefit as well. This allow you to use overlevel alchemical items more frequently without having large issues with the cost.

I don't usually advice house rules, but we are talking about a concept that the system don't support as well, any help it can receive is welcome, if simple refluff is not enough for the player's taste.

 

[MwaO]

That's why I suggested that once you get Master Mixer, then all features on Alchemist and Alchemist Savant that affect "alchemical items your level or lower" consider the Master Mixer benefit as well. This allow you to use overlevel alchemical items more frequently without having large issues with the cost.

I don't consider that a real benefit, for three reasons:
Most alchemical items are basically at-will powers from a controller(at best)
They're impossible to maintain at expected values. The to-hit requires purchasing the highest level of item, so being able to purchase a higher than expected level item just increases the pain. And damage is never where it ought to be.
If you have to spend a feat, a paragon path, and a theme, you ought to essentially get something out of it better than what amounts to being a weak controller at-will as a minor action per encounter. Oozemaster gives that at 1st level at just the cost of a theme...