D&D 5E 5e Hardcore: Monster Manual

[CapnZapp]

Or, Wizards could just hire Dave and publish his monsters. That would shut us up

 

[dave2008]

5E is not good at high levles. Most of the high CR monsters are weak as hell anyway.

Tome of Beasts helps a bit.

I would argue that monsters are not good for high level play - that is what we are trying to correct with this thread

I didn't find ToB to be improvement, maybe I need to take another look

I would just ower the CR of most critters over CR 14 by 3-7.

As CapnZapp said, that doesn't solve the problem. Besides the CR's feel right to me, just not the actual strength of most of the monsters.

you could also power upthings like Dragons by bringing back rules form AD&D like requiring +2 and +3 weapons,

I thought that once, but I am switching back to the simplicity of magical and nonmagical. There are a lot of easy methods to make the monsters tougher.

spell resistance that cuase your spell to outright fail etc.

I've been messing around with different approaches to spell resistance and immunity.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would argue that monsters are not good for high level play - that is what we are trying to correct with this thread

I didn't find ToB to be improvement, maybe I need to take another look



As CapnZapp said, that doesn't solve the problem. Besides the CR's feel right to me, just not the actual strength of most of the monsters.



I thought that once, but I am switching back to the simplicity of magical and nonmagical. There are a lot of easy methods to make the monsters tougher.

I've been messing around with different approaches to spell resistance and immunity.

If you want to start rewriting monsters it is a lot of work. Use more monsters at higher levels or add races to NPC's.

I have a heap of custom monsters myself.
Other tweaks I have considered.

Energy drain causes exhaustion levels.

Spell resistance is a static number. A d20 roll beats it. A mind flayer with AD&D 90% MR becomes 19 or better.

Creatures requiring +2 weapons or better get resistance to bludgeoning slashing etc ncluding magical.

Spellcaster levels added to Dragons.

Magical ammunition not weapon is required to bypass resistance and immunity to magical weapons.

Otherwise its 5 minutes to tweak a creature on MS word for a basic one or half hour or more with legendary creatures.

 

[dave2008]

If you want to start rewriting monsters it is a lot of work. Use more monsters at higher levels or add races to NPC's.

Yes it is - that is why I have asked people to help!

I have a heap of custom monsters myself.
Other tweaks I have considered.

Energy drain causes exhaustion levels.

Spell resistance is a static number. A d20 roll beats it. A mind flayer with AD&D 90% MR becomes 19 or better.

Creatures requiring +2 weapons or better get resistance to bludgeoning slashing etc ncluding magical.

Spellcaster levels added to Dragons.

Magical ammunition not weapon is required to bypass resistance and immunity to magical weapons.

Otherwise its 5 minutes to tweak a creature on MS word for a basic one or half hour or more with legendary creatures.

Thank you for the suggestions. I takes me longer to rework a monsters (at least most of the ones I have done so far) because I feel the need to look over its history and lore and then reflect how I can add that to the 5e version without adding to much complexity. But it is work I enjoy, so there is that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes it is - that is why I have asked people to help!



Thank you for the suggestions. I takes me longer to rework a monsters (at least most of the ones I have done so far) because I feel the need to look over its history and lore and then reflect how I can add that to the 5e version without adding to much complexity. But it is work I enjoy, so there is that.

PM me I have a personal 5E MM with custom monsters and variants. Mostly lower CR but there are a few at CR5-6. Its got 33 monsters/NPCs in it up to CR 13.

You just copy and paste and change the numbers around. A coupe of samples.

Yuan Ti Hand of Seth
Medium Humanoid (Yuan ti half blood) chaotic evil
Armor Class 18 (studded leather,)
Hit Points 136 (18d8+45)
Speed 30 ft.
Saving Throws Dex +7, Con +6, Wis +4
Str 15 (+4), Dex 20 (+5), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 15 (+2)
Skills Deception+5, Intimidation +5, Stealth +7 (advantage)
Senses passive Perception 11
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic
Challenge 9 (5000 XP)
Sneaky: The Hand of Sseth has advantage on deception rolls to disguise themselves and on stealth rolls
Magic Resistance: Advantage on saves vs magic
Skilled. A melee weapon deals one extra dice of damage when the Hand hits with it (included in the attack)
Equipment. Rapier, hand crossbow, 2 vials of poison (7d6 damage), disguise kit
Actions.
Multiattack. The assassin makes 3 melee attacks or two ranged attacks.
Rapier. Melee or ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, Hit 11 (2d8+5) piercing damage + 7d6 poison damage.
Hand Crossbow +8 to hit, (DC13 con save, poisoned 1 hour/unconscious if failed by 5 or more)
Assassin Traits (Assassinate, Evasion, Sneak Attack) Page 343 MM

Yuan Ti Abomination High Priest
Medium monstrosity (shapechanger, yuan ti race), neutral evil
Armor Class 19 (natural armor, dark blessing)
Hit Points 72(15d8+24)
Speed 25 ft.
STR 19 (+4) DEX 16 (+3) CON 17 (+3) INT 17 (+3) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 18 (+4)
Saves Constitution +6, Wisdom +6
Skills Deception +5, Stealth +4
Senses passive Perception 13
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic
Challenge 8 (3900 XP)
Magic Resistance: Advantage on saves vs magic
Yuan Ti Malison abilities (page 308 MM)
Blessing of Sseth. As a bonus action, the priest can expend a spell slot to cause its melee weapon attacks to magically deal an extra 10 (3d6) poison damage to a target on a hit. This benefit lasts until the end of the turn. If the priest expends a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d6 for each level above 1st.
Spellcasting. The priest is a 11th-level spell caster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 13, +5 to
hit with spell attacks). The priest has the following cleric spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): light, sacred flame, thaumaturgy
1st level (4 slots): bless, cause wounds, cure wounds,
2nd level (3 slots): hold person, spiritual weapon
3rd level (3 slots): dispel magic, spiritual guardians,

4th level (3 slots) Banishment, Death Ward*, Freedom of Movement*,

5^th level (2 slots) Flamestrike, Insect Plague

6^th level (1 slot) harm

*Already cast
Actions

Multiattack The Yuan Ti makes three melee attacks or two ranged attacks

Bite. Melee weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5’ one creature. Hit: 7 (1d6+4_ piercing damage + 10 (3d6) poison damage

Scimitar. Melee Weapon Attack: +7to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (2d6++4) slashing damage.


Drow Weaponmaster (gladiator reskin) CR6
Medium Humanoid (any race) chaotic evil
Armor Class 19 (chain shirt, buckler,)
Hit Points 112 (15d8+45)
Speed 30 ft.
Saving Throws Dex +7, Con +6, Wis +4
Str 15 (+4), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 15 (+2)
Skills Intimidation +5, Stealth +7,
Senses passive Perception 11
Languages Any one language (usually common
Challenge 6 (2300 XP)
Superior Magic Resistance: 13
Skilled. A melee weapon deals one extra dice of damage when the drow hits with it (included in the attack)
Equpment (all Drow), Boots of Elvenkinfd, Cloak of Elven Kind, +1 short sword, +1 chain shirt, +1 buckler, 4 dose drow poison.
Actions.
Multiattack. The weaponmaster makes 3 melee attacks or two ranged attacks.
Shortsword. Melee or ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit,. Hit 11 (2d6+5) piercing damage + paralysis (DC13 con save)
Hand Crossbow +8 to hit, 1d6+4+paralysis (DC 13)
Drow traits (page 128 MM)
Longbow (yuan ti form only) Ranged weapon attack +6 to hit, range 150/600ft, one target, hit 2d8+3 piercing damage+3d6 poison damage

 

[Tony Vargas]

In another thread, CapnZapp suggested WotC make a monster manual for advanced players (feat using, multiclassing, optimizing type players) that are not challenged by the monsters in the MM and VGtM.

I'm not sure what the point would be. An 'advanced' DM should be able to just whip up or adjust on the fly monsters sufficiently challenging to any level of player optimization. Exhaustive PC-like design options just, IMHO, add a lot of unnecessary steps to that process.

Thus, I have decided to add a little trick we got from 4e: standard, elite, paragon, and mythic monsters. The elite, paragon, and mythic monsters might have the same CR, but the do more damage, have more HP and/or better defenses, and more XP than the standard (WotC) monsters. Basically to get these monsters you modifty an existing monster by 1.5x for Elite, 2x for Paragon, and 4x for Mythic.

Where would legendary fit into that?

 

[MostlyDm]

Dave, I like some of what you've done here. Adding spells, some neat alternate attcks, bonus action movement, flexibility... a lot of that stuff is pretty cool.

But I think the fundamental sensibility... over-inflating damage with flat +20 modifiers, boosting HP values into 500+ and so on... I think some of that stuff is misguided, personally. It may be what you, Zapp, and others want, so more power to you. But to me it just looks like creeping power to create hard barriers.

Part of the fun of Bounded Accuracy is that there are very few hard barriers in the world. It's sad to see that eroded in a quest for Bigger Numbers.

I do love some of your abilities, though. If I wanted to use these guys, it'd be roughly as hard as using any other monster I don't like: I'd make some tweaks to get them to the power I want, and move on. I don't see why this is constantly touted as a hard to overcome hurdle.

I'm being pretty negative, so here is some positive feedback: your "Unstoppable" mechanics are a really fantastic idea, much more interesting that Legendary Resistance. I will absolutely be stealing that.

 

[dave2008]

PM me I have a personal 5E MM with custom monsters and variants. Mostly lower CR but there are a few at CR5-6. Its got 33 monsters/NPCs in it up to CR 13.

Will do! Thanks for the assist.

 

[dave2008]

I'm not sure what the point would be. An 'advanced' DM should be able to just whip up or adjust on the fly monsters sufficiently challenging to any level of player optimization. Exhaustive PC-like design options just, IMHO, add a lot of unnecessary steps to that process.

My thought is DMs have enough difficulty keeping up with "advanced" players (I think I like the term hard core better now) that they need ready to go monsters. At least I know that is what CapnZapp wants. Personally, I just like making tougher monsters

Where would legendary fit into that?

Legendary is a different system, not a type. If you look at the monsters I have posted they have elite in the description: Large elite fiend (demon), chaotic evil Any of these could also be legendary, but they are not required to be. Notice the balor is "elite" and had legendary actions, but the marilith and goristro are only elite.

 

[dave2008]

Dave, I like some of what you've done here. Adding spells, some neat alternate attcks, bonus action movement, flexibility... a lot of that stuff is pretty cool.

But I think the fundamental sensibility... over-inflating damage with flat +20 modifiers, boosting HP values into 500+ and so on... I think some of that stuff is misguided, personally. It may be what you, Zapp, and others want, so more power to you. But to me it just looks like creeping power to create hard barriers.

Part of the fun of Bounded Accuracy is that there are very few hard barriers in the world. It's sad to see that eroded in a quest for Bigger Numbers.

Well BA is not affected by more damage and hit points so I am not sure I am following. The purpose of this is to help stay within BA by broadening the options (roughly more HP and damage without higher AC and +to hit). To be clear, most of the monsters I update will not have the "elite" tag, and will just have different options, not power creep as you put it. I just started with things I had already pretty much completed, and that I felt need a power bump. For instance, I am working on the Nalfeshnee Swine Guard and it is almost identical from a HP and damage perspective, just with some new and revised abilities and beefed up saves.

I do love some of your abilities, though. If I wanted to use these guys, it'd be roughly as hard as using any other monster I don't like: I'd make some tweaks to get them to the power I want, and move on. I don't see why this is constantly touted as a hard to overcome hurdle.

I'm being pretty negative, so here is some positive feedback: your "Unstoppable" mechanics are a really fantastic idea, much more interesting that Legendary Resistance. I will absolutely be stealing that.

Yes, I designed unstoppable based on complaints I had heard about legendary resistance. I am pretty happy with that one too.

Thank you for your comments!