D&D 4E 4E - more rules or less?

[an_idol_mind]

What I would like to see is a system in which classes are done away with, and class skills are redesigned as feat trees. Then a simple point buy system, so much for each scale of BAB and saves, so much for x number of skills and so much for feats. Let us design our characters as free flowing as possible, then convert the idea of a warrior,, mage, etc. to more of a social status than a description of someone's abilities.

I hope that D&D never gets away from being a class-based system. I wouldn't mind having a breakdown somewhere in the DM's Guide about how classes are built or a point-based system that allows them to be redone, but the class system is one of the things that makes D&D so successful. I game with several casual role-players, and long character design processes turn them off instantly. With D&D, they can choose a race, class, and starting package, and they're done. Point-based character design is great for hard core role-players, but a class-based system will continue to bring together newbies and experienced players alike.

 

[jstater]

To be honest, I'm done with 3rd and won't bother with 4th. I'm playing C&C now and I'm happy.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I dunno about less rules, although that is what I want because I want a faster game system. Except there is a far better way to get faster game play than reducing rules.

Improve its MODULARITY!

I believe that it should be possible for characters designed from a highly complex D20-based rules system (college graduates could be comfortable with it) and characters designed from a highly simplified D20-based rules sytem (9-year-olds could be comfortable with it) to adventure through the same published modules... I'm not saying that they would be playing together, of course.

 

[Lanefan]

Less hard rules, more 1e-ish guidelines and-or options. That said,

No crafts, no professions, simply skills.
Enough of this mess and questions like: I'm a sailor, can I swim just a bit?

Make things like swimming an independent ability...just roll once to see how good a natural swimmer you are, and leave it at that. If you decide to spend time later to upgrade your swimming, roll again; if the new roll is better, keep it.

Make hero development more customizable.
Grant feat every level. Grant ability increase every level. Limit starting ability scores to 8-12 range.
Group feats into feat trees (to avoid cherry picking).
Limit ability development to certain difference between lowest and highest score (to avoid min maxing chaos).

In other words, take away the randomness inherent in roll-up. No thanks.

No material costs for powerful spells. Use drain-type cost instead.
Powerful spells should be limited by ability and experience drains. Otherwise, any such spell is only limited by character's personal wealth. Also, increase casting times.

Agree on casting times. Disagree on cost...if people want to spend money on spells instead of items etc., fine with me.

Nerf game breaking spells. Give peace a chance.
Nerf:
- Instant transportation spells (suggestion: long preparations, the target location is somehow marked during spell casting - strange lights, maybe? - so there is no surprise factor involved).
- Buff spells (suggestion: ability drain for both the caster and recipient).

Buffs are a pain. Transport not so much, but the DM has to figure it into adventure design when the party is high enough level.

- Raise dead spells (long casting time instead of high cost, ability drains requiring additional healing, clinical death rule instead of unflexible -10 damage threshold).

I like the cost associated with Raise effects; I'd also like to see a 1e-like survival roll to see if it works, failure meaning perma-death.

- Instakill spells make the character dying, not dead (use clinical death rule).
- Direct damage spells are fine, but also make the character dying rather than dead.
- Massive damage makes the character dying, not dead.

Clinical death rule: the character immediately below 0 hitpoints is unconscious, a little more below - dying, but not dead. He needs professional help within minutes, not seconds.

Disagree completely. Dead is dead, and if your players can't handle this, tough.

Lanefan

 

[tvknight415]

Streamline the skills (fewer skills that cover more - ie 'stealth' instead of move silently & hide). Eliminate the feats, and make a lot of combat maneuvers simple (ie, a simple opposed attack roll). Lose the skill synergy, and make it less of a numbers crunch thing. Keep the basic d20 mechanic.

 

[Brimshack]

I hope that D&D never gets away from being a class-based system. I wouldn't mind having a breakdown somewhere in the DM's Guide about how classes are built or a point-based system that allows them to be redone, but the class system is one of the things that makes D&D so successful. I game with several casual role-players, and long character design processes turn them off instantly. With D&D, they can choose a race, class, and starting package, and they're done. Point-based character design is great for hard core role-players, but a class-based system will continue to bring together newbies and experienced players alike.

Fair points. I know we can break it down that way ourselves, and some have already done that. It would be interesting to see that possibility worked into the system, but you're right about doing away with classes. The possibility intrigue me, but you're right about the wisdom of actually doing so.

 

[jdrakeh]

Screw another edition of the current system -- lI'd like to see WotC license True20 for D&D

[Note: I'm mostly kidding, but since I'm using True20 to run a World's Largest Dungeon campaign and, possibly, an Eberron campaign in the near future. . . well . . . the idea isn't completely without its appeal.]

 

[jdrakeh]

I don't mind the overall complexity of the rules. But there is one thing that needs to be seriously addressed in a new edition:

The speed with which you create NPCs or alter monsters. As of now, it takes up far too much time.

Seconded. That's my primary issuse with straight-up D&D as it currently stands. Everything else is pretty easy to overlook or roll with, but maaaaaaaaan. . . the approach to NPCs and monsters is wholly inelegant.

 

[Belbarid]

Without getting caught up in the potential intricacies of a 4th edition, my question is simply: should the next edition of D&D have more rules than 3.5, or less?

Many, including ex-wargamers like myself, appreciate the comprehensive miniature-combat rules, but find the skill-or-rule-for-everything premise of 3.5 a bit inhibiting.

Would you prefer the next edition to be a bit more...streamlined? If so, in which regard: combat, skills, or stats/saves?

Don't care. Use what you like, ignore what you don't, add what you will. As long as the group is having fun, I don't think the WotC Official Rules Purity Police will care much...

That being said, I think it's also a moot point. WotC is in the business of making money, which means books need to be printed, which means (assumably) something needs to go in them. Now, I'd love it if they focused more on campaign worlds and less on the trifecta of New Feats/New Spells/New PrC's, but that doesn't seem to be what WotC has in mind. However 4e starts, there will be supplements with more rules, until 4.5e comes out and they can begin expanding on *that* rules base.

And this isn't really a complaint, either. I like some of the new stuff that they've come out with. Disliked more than I've liked, but that's where the first paragraph comes into play.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I prefer a fair amount of rules. Its easy to toss something out, its harder to come up with something on the spot. I'd rather have a slightly cumbersome grapple rule than NOTHING and whatever the DM feels is appropriate, since its at least a guideline. "Fiat & Favoritism" was never my personal choice for a gaming system.

That said, many rules can certainly be streamlined/clarified. Grapple, turning, AoO's etc. Lots of redundant things can be merged - I dont see a big need for sacred and profane when simple "divine" bonus would suffice. Likewise with competence and insight bonus. Have almost all items that grant a bonus be enhancement. Theres no need for boots of elvenkind to grant a competence bonus - just have it be an enhancement bonus. It improves your move silently the same way the +1 enhancement bonus on your suit of plate enhances the armor's capability. Claok of resistance +1 grants a +1 enhancement to saves, etc.

Buffs too need some help. Just make them "wards/blessings/whatever", have them always up, and limit the number that can be on a character at any one time. Say one at first level, and 5 at 20 (or whatever). No tracking duration, the bonus is almost always on, and with less of them in effect there are fewer stat block adjustments.