D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Vaalingrade]

I won't deny this is a bit of overthinking, but it comes with a purpose. For example talking to a fire spirit in the language of fire is supernatural in the Spellwright series you just mentioned, but is speaking to a magma mephit in Ignan supernatural in DnD?

Again, relative to the setting.

And, the best part about having supernatural be from the perspective of the readership/players is that there can be no debate about it. You cannot truly debate if wizardry in DnD is supernatural or natural if you are taking the position of the reader looking in, because no one in our world can summon creatures through portals or form ice out of thin air with mere words and gestures. It is a clear, easily defined, and consistent line. Is it possible IRL? Y/N. Meanwhile, if you take it from "is this supernatural in terms of the world" then you could have one person lighting their fists on fire, and that is entirely natural, and the other person lighting their fists on fire being supernatural. Which is weird, and not helpful for defining the abilities.

So the best part is that you're annihilated all meaning and sunk into fantastic nihilism where there is no meaningful difference between channeling mystic power from angels and--and I once again quote because I want us all to be clear on where this ridiculousness has gotten us: 'planning'?

 

[Chaosmancer]

So why can't the book say, "the world is full of magic, and everyone in it can develop superhuman/supernatural/magical abilities with time and training"? I mean, that's the truth of your position, and in my stance you only have to say it once in the right place (maybe twice in the descriptions of otherwise non-supernatural classes). I'm hardly asking that it be put in front of every ability. A note explaining that "magical" means like a spell, and thus can be affected by things that can affect spells, would be nice too, but leave it off if definitions are that much of a burden.

Why does it need to say it? The world of DnD IS full of magic. Being caught in a particularly bad thunderstorm can give you magical powers. And we already know that it is possible to gain abilities with time and training, because that's literally how a game of leveling up works.

I mean seriously, how else could an Eldritch Knight even come to exist, if time and training can't lead to powers and abilities?

But you won't accept that we can add more, because you don't like the explanation, until you have brow-beaten the exact phrasing you want out of everyone.

 

[ECMO3]

Good lord this is a massive post. I don't mind trying to respond to a large post, but this is far too much. I'm splitting this into multiple responses, there is just no feasible way to do this and keep it readable.



At level three? Not going to be much I can do, but I can still do quite a bit.

So, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Charisma, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dex, 8 Strength

I said good at all three pillars and that includes combat

At 3rd level you are weak at the combat pillar with a 10 Dexterity and 8 strength. Your cantrips do extremely poor damage, about half what you should be doing at this level, you don't have enough slots to use levels spells often and your dexterity and strength is too low to cover that with weapons like an AVERAGE Wizard would at this level.

Spells: 3 cantrips, of which I can change one on a long rest. So, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion for your standard day
Invisibility and Suggestion, with Find Familiar, Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Grease, Silent Image, Ice Knife, Sleep, Disguise Self

So you actually think you wil be "good" at the combat pillar with a 10AC, no shield spell, no mage Armor spell and 26 hit points?

You will get wiped out. At 3rd level this Wizard might be hard pressed to survive the very first level 1 encounter in LMOP.

That is a fairly solid footing. It isn't perfect, but I AM only a 3rd level character.

It is very weak at combat , not even close to average let alone good at that pillar. I will give you that you are good at the exploration pillar, and ok at the social pillar but you suck at combat.

You have 7-8 spells you can cast per day, including Arcane recovery. Since your damage is so poor without leveled spells that means you can meaningfully contribute in probably 5 out of 20 turns of combat per day (with the other 2 or 3 spells going to prop up the social pillar), and that is assuming an enemy never saves or shrugs off one of your spells.

As for the rest, I agree you are good at the Social pillar and he exploration pillar. But you are not good at all 3 pillars.

Make that 16 Constitution a 10, take a 16 in Dexterity instead and some defensive spells and you will be a lot better at combat without sacrificing much at all in the other two, and that is the point if you insist on a 16 Constitution you are not going to be good at all 3 pillars.


A couple other minor points though:

And why am I identifying plants? Sure, some obscure task that requires the nature roll I'll ONLY have my high intelligence for a +3 and advantage, and my familiar can let me see through their eyes. Additionally, help action, again. Things like the familiar figuring what the plant smells like or other tasks that can help identify it, if I need to do this for whatever reason.

Your familiar uses its own ability scores not yours.

Yes they can. Climbing does not require an athletics check. Re-read the rules.

From PHB page 173:

Athletics​

Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming.

I didn't bother with shield and mage armor. Stick to distance with ray of frost. Magic Missile is good for damage, ice knife is good for AOE. Grease, SIlent Image, and Minor illusion can act as both control, and as defenses (the classic Minor Illusion a box with firing slits to give disadvantage to hit you)

Like I said earlier your 3rd level character has a relatively high chance of dying in the very first encounter in LMOP (Goblins with Bows and Nimble Escape) designed for level 1 characters.

TBH Dodge is probably a better combat action for you than Ray of Frost considering the minimal damage ROF does at this level.

A fighter good in Wisdom and Charisma? You still have the same ability scores, so to get that...

16 Str, 10 Con, 13 Charisma, 16 Wisdom, 12 Dex, 8 INT?

You can get one or the other better than the wizard I made, but not both. And that's something you missed at this whole exercise, the wizard was achieving in every field. Stealthy enough to scout, familiar boosts scouting, magic supports social interactions, and offers options impossible for the martials, and combat control and damage are still solid.

First off if I wanted to be contribute at all 3 pillars I would dump Dexterity or Strength and push Charisma and Wisdom both

Meanwhile, you want a fighter with 16 str, 16 wis, 16 cha, as well as persuasion, insight, perception, investigation, survival, nature... and they still can't look like anyone, still can't read minds, still can't turn invisible, still can't auto-damage an enemy, still can't use illusions to deceive the enemy...

Sure but they actually contribute a lot in combat where you don't. Like 20 rounds out of 20 rounds, and when they fail a Charisma check they have maneuvers that they can use more often than you can use your spells.

 

[ECMO3]

And how many locked doors do you encounter?

If it is just one locked door you have severely gimped your Wizard. Even if it is zero you have gimped her by having her prepare Knock.

That's always the trick, isn't it. Plus, knock is a brute force method. Acid Splash to melt the lock, send your familiar to get the keys, disguise self to go and get the keys yourself.

If your familiar can sneak in and get a key then most Rogues can sneak in anfd get a key. There is no familiar option that is going to come close to a Rogue with expertise in Stealth. Even at 1st level.

CLerics and Druids can both end up combining Shillelagh with a spell like booming blade.

So what? Any character can do this with a couple feats.

By the way how is your Cleric or Druid getting Booming Blade since you did not consider feats because they are optional?

Also, why can't the barbarian just stick with a 16 strength? They get extra attack and rage damage, is it just because of that 11th level boost they don't get?

Barbarian is probably the weakest class overall in terms of number of levels where they are weakest, but even they are playable all the way to level 20 with a 16 Strength.

When you get above level 10 they are going to start falling behind Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers pretty quickly though, quick enough I would say you are usually not good at combat without other help.

THis is kind of rambly. You aren't supporting any of this, just stating it as fact. Why don't fighter's need to improve their strength, but Barbarians need to improve their strength AND get feats?

It is not needed. I played fighters to level 20 with a 16 attack stat. I rarely get a strength ASI at all, when I do get it it comes on a half feat typically (Heavy Armor Master most commonly).

Fighters get more attacks and most of them have fighting styles or subclass options to make their attacks even better.

Why are we ignoring sneak attack?

I did nto ignore it. I didn't mention Rogues at all. They are fine I think and relatively easy to make good at all 3 pillars.

Studded leather and a good dex gives you 15 AC, that's plenty for a back-liner. And they aren't good between levels 3 and 5? Are you just not aware of Dissonant whispers, Faerie fire, bane, bless, sleep is going out I'll agree, but you are getting hold person, heat metal, phantasmal force.. heck, 5th level gives you Enemies Abound, hypnotic pattern, stinking cloud. I've seen each of these spells end a fight.

Compared to other classes they are not "good" at these levels. Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Warlocks all have better combat spell options and the first 3 have much better AC and are much better at supporting concentration (especially the Sorc). Druids have roughly equivalent spell options with a better AC and Wild Shape. All the other classes are dealing more damage

There are 3 main problems with the Bard at these levels - bad Cantrips, weak AC and mediocre spell options. There is a 4th smaller problem in that they get less spells than Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics because they can not recharge slots like those classes can.

A 15AC is not high enough to support spells like Hold Person or Heat Metal for very long and neither of these are the equivalent of Web or Spike Growth, being far more situational. Your Cleric is going to have Hold Person which works against humanoids and he is going to have Spiritual Weapon that Works against everything else. Your Wizard is going to have Hold Person and Web, your Druid Heat Metal for BBEG in armor and Spike Growth for everything else.

Hypnotic Pattern should not end a fight against intelligent enemies unless the DM plays on easy mode. It should be one lost action per failed save and if you cast heat metal or hold person every enemy is going to target you and your 15AC is going to come down. Round 1 you cast HP on 10 orcs and 9 fail their save, by round 3 ALL 10m of them should be fighting you again and if they are not the DM is being nice. You have to get every single enemy in the AOE and have all of them fail the save to end an encounter with this .... even then you better be able to either leave them or kill them in one round.

I do agree Dissonant Whispers is awesome, and Faerie Fire and bless are really good but they do not upcast well and this is why the Bard falls off quite a bit at level 3 compared to others.

Sure, the bard isn't going to be directly dealing the highest damage, but if the bard turns the enemy brute against their allies, they have canceled that enemies attacks and increased damage on the opposing side, plus, even if the spell is ended, the enemy might still continue ripping into each other.

He is not going to be dealing good damage, he is going to be doing worse than other casters at control and at healing.

Impossibilities shared by every single PC in the game.

YES. You claimed fighters could not do impossible things. They can.

Also why they can't smash rocks? I think they can. A rock is an object, so it has hit points and draining hit points by smashing things is supposedly the only thing people here seem to think a fighter can do well.

They can't jump over tall buildings because you can only jump as far as your move.

It is late, I have another sixteen pages of responses from you. But this? This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong. You WANT casters to be more powerful than everyone else in a team game?

It is fundamentally right. It is right when I play a caster and it is right when I play a non-caster. IMO it is one big reason this edition is so fun.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why does it need to say it? The world of DnD IS full of magic. Being caught in a particularly bad thunderstorm can give you magical powers. And we already know that it is possible to gain abilities with time and training, because that's literally how a game of leveling up works.

I mean seriously, how else could an Eldritch Knight even come to exist, if time and training can't lead to powers and abilities?

But you won't accept that we can add more, because you don't like the explanation, until you have brow-beaten the exact phrasing you want out of everyone.

Tell me how the addition of a single sentence to the PH damages your game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So the best part is that you're annihilated all meaning and sunk into fantastic nihilism where there is no meaningful difference between channeling mystic power from angels and--and I once again quote because I want us all to be clear on where this ridiculousness has gotten us: 'planning'?

It is not eliminating all meaning. You aren't understanding what I am saying.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and "planning"? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and channeling the energy of your own body? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels, channeling the energy of your own body, eating a purple-hearted herb planted at midnight on the equinox, and moving in time with the song of the stars? Yes. Obviously.

But the thing that is the same about channeling the mystical power of Angels to call down holy fire, channeling the energy of your own body to send a shockwave through your opponent, eating a purple-hearted herb that gives the the strength of giants and moving in time with the song of the stars to step into the future and glimpse what is to come... is that they are all supernatural. It doesn't matter if anyone with the proper training can do two or three of these, it doesn't matter if everyone is capable of it, if the entire process is completely natural with no need for spiritualism or symbolism... none of it works in the real-world.

Any given world is going to treat any given power system differently, just like they are going to treat anything else differently. But whether souls are gifts from the gods, sparks of starfire, emergent properties of creation, or just the conscious self separate from the body... anything manipulating a soul is supernatural. Be it hyper-tech, god magic, or meditation. Just like I don't think every mystery novel or horror novel does everything the exact same way, I don't see calling all things that are impossible in this reality "supernatural". It doesn't donote how they work or why they work, just that I'm not going to be able to do them or meet anyone who has ever done them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Tell me how the addition of a single sentence to the PH damages your game.

Tell me why I need to add "DnD takes place in a fantasy world of magic and monsters, and is full of impossible to achieve deeds" to the PHB.

 

[ECMO3]

Okay, back to trying to respond to this SINGLE post



Just because they don't feel comfortable with low con, does not mean they do not try to be good at "other things". Additionally, think about what Actor does before you start casting shade on people who don't take it. Actor is only good for pretending to be someone else or mimicking a voice. And when I have had those people, they often are playing Changelings, or Warlocks with MAsk of Many Faces, or they take Eldritch Adept to get Mask of Many Faces. They don't play fighters who take Actor, and who also need disguise kit proficiency.

I am not casting shade on anyone. I am pointing out that players purposely build these classes to be good at combat and that is why those characters are only good at combat.

A few assumptions here.

1) You seem to assume that a high level party will face only CR 15 or above creatures, and they will all be in the same fight. Also, the first 10? So... adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon... The immune to fear was likely the Death Giant Shrouded one. So, what? You expect a party in a normal game is going to have multiple encounters that contain multiple adult dragons of different types teaming up with an elite death giant?

I know they will because I play a lot of games at high level.
Pick any 10 in order and you will find the same.

At high level most monsters that matter will have resistances, immunities and legendary resistance.

Descent into Avernus, at level 3 MOST enemies you are facing have magic resistance. That is at level 3.

Let's look at another published adventure, Dungeon of the mad mage:

Level 15:
Enemies with significant condition immunities, Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance: Ghost, Death Tyrant, Living Unseen Servant, Adult White Dragon, Stone Golem, Vampire, Nycaloth
Enemies without those things: Lava Children Skeletons, Drow, Mephits, Mage (and the Mage that is has counterspell)

Level 16:
Enemies With: Crystal Golems, Adult Red Dragon, Mind Flayers
Enemies without: various Githyanki, Young Red Dragons

Level 17:
Enemies with: Neothilid, Mind Flayers, Scaladar
Enemies without: Githyanki, Orogs, Troglodyte, Vetran, Dueregar, Grimlocks

Level 18:
Enemies with: Bronze Shadow Dragon, Death Knight, Vampires, Shadow Assasins
Enemies without: Vampire Spawn, Swarm of Rats, cloaker

Of note, there are things that don't have these, but you should roll over most of those creatures at this level and you are not using your powerful spells for them.

2) While yes, higher level spells are often stronger, that doesn't mean low-level spells are weak. Web is an example I bring up fairly often, it is a low level spell, and not an IMMEDIATE fight ender, so will the DM use a legendary resistance on it? But, if you fail the dex save, then it takes an action to break out. And if you are trying to make distance, this can translate into two turns of the enemy being unable to hit the party, while granting advantage to the parties attacks. And the fighter.... can't replicate this, unless they take the web spell. The only fighter who even has an ability to restrain an enemy AT ALL is the Rune Knight, and it is a save at end of turn and fire damage.

If you are not immune to restrained and you fail the save. Web is a good spell, I am not saying it isn't. But it is situational at high level being restrained is not nearly as bad for an enemy as it is at low level.

A high level Rune Knight with athletics proficiency can fairly reliably put a huge Dragon prone and grappled in a single turn. As far as conditions, this is generally better than being restrained in a web, the Dragon can't use Legendaries to stop it because it is a contest and the Dragon needs to make a strength check which he will likely fail to try and get out of it. It also takes effect immediately instead of waiting until the Dragon's turn and the RK can move the Dragon wherever he wants and he does not need to retain concentration.

To compare these:

Against Web an Adult Blue Dragon has a 40% chance to fail a DC18 Dex save and a 50% chance to make the DC 18 Strength Check if he fails and that is if he chooses not to use a legendary.

Against a RK trying to grapple and prone, the same Dragon has over a 90% chance of failing at least 2 of 3 strength contests against a +10 with advantage. Once he is grappled and proned the chance he can break free with an action is less than 20%. He can't use a Legendary against this either. To add incult to injury over half the time the Fighter will do it in 2 of his 3 attacks and be able to pound him with advantage using his 3rd attack.

I am glad you find joy. I would not be happy to realize that my entire character is a footnote in another character's abilities. In fact, I have often been annoyed by that.

I am never a footnote, but niether do I get jealous and upset because someone else has a stronger character. You be You, let me be me.

I can play any class RAW to 20th level and be effective, why should I worry about if another character at the table is better than me?

I mean it is a team game anyway, having someone else who is more powerful makes the entire party more powerful.

But more importantly, you keep missing the point. Your fighter was good as the face because no one else wanted to be the face.

We did have a Paladin and he was planning to be the face. But I boosted Charisma on my fighter, while he boosted strength first and then Constitution with his Paladin.

I was a better face than him because of choices I made in my build. I don't think I stole his role, his chassis is actually more suited to that, he just did not choose to invest as much as I did.

And, while yes, it is a team game, if you consistently make it so that only spellcasters can reach the heights of certain pillars... then you are going to consistently see spellcasters taking over. And then someone who doesn't want to play a spellcaster is either going to be forced to change their concept, or be a less effective team member.

It depends on what you mean by caster.

I have not seen full casters take over in 10 years of playing 5E and I see as many non-full casters now as I did in the beginning even though the gap at most levels has widened

If by "caster" you are including the Monk, Rogue or Fighter that gets a spell through a race option, then sure casters have taken over the game, but I don't see a problem with that as lots of people are still playing those non-caster classes.

Also you seem to be ignoring that this is very specific to level and class. Wizards are overall the strongest characters in the game, but they are not the strongest at every level.

I'm facing something like this right now. I made a Beast Barbarian with a focus on stealth and hunting... and another player came to the table with a Gloomstalker Ranger/Rogue. I wanted to be more than just the big, strong tough guy, but I'm completely overshadowed in anything dealing with stealth and tracking.

I think this is just petty. It is pouting. It is like playing a game of basketball with your friends and being angry that your teamate can dunk and you can't.

Also, Fey Wanderer can match someone with Expertise, but it doesn't nullify all the OTHER things a face character can do (as long as that face is using magic) And maxing Wisdom while getting a 16 Charisma.... doesn't leave a lot of room for Dex, and being a martial character.

A Fey Wanderer can bury a Paladin, Warlock, Wizard or Sorcerer. They get spells, including Charm Person and have Beguiling Twist on top of that.

Fey Wanderer is really the only Ranger I play anymore.

I am rarely attacking at high level with a Fey Wanderer. Extra attack with Favored Foe and Dreadful Strikes is a nice fallback option, and I also usually have Shillaleagh and Magic Stone through a fighting style to use Wisdom, although the bonus action tax can be difficult to manage. In truth though I am using spells (or magic items) most of the time in meaningful combats when it matters. In really tough combats I am spamming Concentration-Free Summon Fey and then twisting their charms when someone saves.

None of this makes them any less optional. Martials need to work WITH and WITHOUT feats.

Why when feats are available?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It is not eliminating all meaning. You aren't understanding what I am saying.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and "planning"? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and channeling the energy of your own body? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels, channeling the energy of your own body, eating a purple-hearted herb planted at midnight on the equinox, and moving in time with the song of the stars? Yes. Obviously.

But the thing that is the same about channeling the mystical power of Angels to call down holy fire, channeling the energy of your own body to send a shockwave through your opponent, eating a purple-hearted herb that gives the the strength of giants and moving in time with the song of the stars to step into the future and glimpse what is to come... is that they are all supernatural. It doesn't matter if anyone with the proper training can do two or three of these, it doesn't matter if everyone is capable of it, if the entire process is completely natural with no need for spiritualism or symbolism... none of it works in the real-world.

Any given world is going to treat any given power system differently, just like they are going to treat anything else differently. But whether souls are gifts from the gods, sparks of starfire, emergent properties of creation, or just the conscious self separate from the body... anything manipulating a soul is supernatural. Be it hyper-tech, god magic, or meditation. Just like I don't think every mystery novel or horror novel does everything the exact same way, I don't see calling all things that are impossible in this reality "supernatural". It doesn't donote how they work or why they work, just that I'm not going to be able to do them or meet anyone who has ever done them.

And I don't disagree. But I do have to wonder why it's ok to have a clear supernatural explanation for 11 of the 13 classes doing supernatural things, but not ok to have such an explanation for the other 2 classes doing supernatural things?

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is not eliminating all meaning. You aren't understanding what I am saying.

And yet...

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and "planning"? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels and channeling the energy of your own body? Yes. Obviously.

Is there a difference between channeling the mystic power of Angels, channeling the energy of your own body, eating a purple-hearted herb planted at midnight on the equinox, and moving in time with the song of the stars? Yes. Obviously.

But the thing that is the same about channeling the mystical power of Angels to call down holy fire, channeling the energy of your own body to send a shockwave through your opponent, eating a purple-hearted herb that gives the the strength of giants and moving in time with the song of the stars to step into the future and glimpse what is to come... is that they are all supernatural. It doesn't matter if anyone with the proper training can do two or three of these, it doesn't matter if everyone is capable of it, if the entire process is completely natural with no need for spiritualism or symbolism... none of it works in the real-world.

I notice 'planning' disappeared from this right quick and got replaced by a lot of fantastic things carefully positioned to all be clearly supernatural when my argument is the constant attempts to recontextualize fantastic but not supernatural things as supernatural including such things as being hyperbolically good at planning and 'written as competent'. This tangent comes from someone trying to call Batman's ability to defeat powerful foes through careful planning 'supernatural' because they consider being written as competent to be 'reality warping'.

This is not a good thing. There is a concentrated effort going on for some reason to erase the concept of the non-supernatural, non-magical fantastic and replace it with a flat, bland label of 'magic'. Nothing can be interesting and beyond (or even equal to) what is currently possible on Earth without being shoved into a very specific purview of 'magic', ignoring a vast spectrum of the fantastic because that's all there ever is in D&D anymore: magic and 'whatever doesn't matter'.