Stat this up # 2

[Nookie]

Okay, I'm thinking it makes sense to move the Foxfire Tail column from Dragon Abilities by Age to a separate table in the combat entry.

Furthermore, I'm thinking 1d8 would work better for the tail touch foxfire damage than 1d6 if we wanted it to do roughly the same damage with both attacks. If we'd rather have the touch do less damage with vastly better accuracy I'm OK leaving it as-is.

Thus:

Foxfire Tail (Ex): All hu lung dragons can make melee and touch attacks with their tails that can inflict foxfire damage. The dragon usually makes a tail attack as a primary natural weapon attack and makes its other natural weapon attacks (bite, claws) as secondary attacks, but it does have the option to make a primary attack with its bite and a secondary attack with its tail.

A hu lung dragon has increased Reach with its tail. Consult the Foxfire Tail Table for the reach and typical foxfire tail attack damage of standard hu lung dragons in each age category.

Tail Slap: If the dragon hits with a melee attack from its tail, it does bludgeoning damage plus 1d4 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon. A hu lung applies its Strength modifier to its tail slap's bludgeoning damage normally, it does not apply 1.5 times its Strength bonus like a standard true dragons.

Tail Touch: If the dragon hits with a melee touch attack from its tail, it does 1d8 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon. The hu lung does not apply its Strength modifier to its tail touch damage.

Foxfire Tail Table

Age	Reach	Slap Damage	Touch Damage
Wyrmling Very Young Young Juvenile Young Adult Adult Mature Adult Old Very Old Ancient Wyrm Great Wyrm	5 ft. 10 ft. 15 ft. 15 ft. 20 ft. 20 ft. 30 ft. 30 ft. 30 ft. 30 ft. 40 ft. 40 ft.	1d4 plus 1d4 foxfire 1d6+1 plus 2d4 foxfire 1d8+2 plus 3d4 foxfire 1d8+3 plus 4d4 foxfire 2d6+4 plus 5d4 foxfire 2d6+6 plus 6d4 foxfire 2d8+8 plus 7d4 foxfire 2d8+9 plus 8d4 foxfire 3d6+10 plus 9d4 foxfire 3d6+11 plus 10d4 foxfire 4d6+12 plus 11d4 foxfire 4d6+13 plus 12d4 foxfire	1d6 foxfire 2d6 foxfire 3d6 foxfire 4d6 foxfire 5d6 foxfire 6d6 foxfire 7d6 foxfire 8d6 foxfire 9d6 foxfire 10d6 foxfire 11d6 foxfire 12d6 foxfire

Looks amazing.

 

[Cleon]

Looks amazing.

Updating the Hu Lung Working Draft.

So do you prefer the current 1d6/category for the tail touch or would you rather increase it to 1d8?

I'm thinking I'd like to modify it as follows:

* * *

Tail Touch: A hu lung dragon can make a melee touch attack with its tail as a standard action. This does 1d8 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon. The hu lung does not apply its Strength modifier to its tail touch damage.

* * *

I suggested the above because after mulling it over most melee touch "variants to a melee attack" are standard actions rather than being part of a full attack.

I am inclined to allow it to make multiple melee touch attacks as a full attack once it gains the multiple tails ability.

Anyhow, if that's OK by you it would mean Improved Grab and Constrict are next on our list.

Am I right in assuming you're OK with using the standard version for the Improved Grab with its tail?

 

[Nookie]

Updating the Hu Lung Working Draft.

So do you prefer the current 1d6/category for the tail touch or would you rather increase it to 1d8?

I'm thinking I'd like to modify it as follows:

* * *

Tail Touch: A hu lung dragon can make a melee touch attack with its tail as a standard action. This does 1d8 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon. The hu lung does not apply its Strength modifier to its tail touch damage.

* * *

I suggested the above because after mulling it over most melee touch "variants to a melee attack" are standard actions rather than being part of a full attack.

I am inclined to allow it to make multiple melee touch attacks as a full attack once it gains the multiple tails ability.

Anyhow, if that's OK by you it would mean Improved Grab and Constrict are next on our list.

Am I right in assuming you're OK with using the standard version for the Improved Grab with its tail?

Im ok with the normal version of improved grab. Did you want to allow them to grapple multiple things?

 

[Cleon]

Im ok with the normal version of improved grab. Did you want to allow them to grapple multiple things?

I was thinking of including multigrapple in the Multiple Tails SA - when we get around to it!

What about the proposed modification to tail touch in my previous post?

As for the Improved Grab, since we're making it the standard version it'd be:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a hu lung must hit with a tail attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict the foe the following round.

 

[Nookie]

I was thinking of including multigrapple in the Multiple Tails SA - when we get around to it!

What about the proposed modification to tail touch in my previous post?

As for the Improved Grab, since we're making it the standard version it'd be:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a hu lung must hit with a tail attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict the foe the following round.

tale touch looks good to me.

 

[Cleon]

tale touch looks good to me.

Updating the Hu Lung Working Draft.

While updating I realized a minor problem - the hu lung obtains Improved Grab before it obtains Constrict, so at Very Young age it can do one but not the other.

Accordingly I've modified Improved Grab as follows:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a hu lung must hit with a tail attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold. A hu lung with the constrict special attack can then attempt to constrict the opponent the following round.

 

[Nookie]

Updating the Hu Lung Working Draft.

While updating I realized a minor problem - the hu lung obtains Improved Grab before it obtains Constrict, so at Very Young age it can do one but not the other.

Accordingly I've modified Improved Grab as follows:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a hu lung must hit with a tail attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold. A hu lung with the constrict special attack can then attempt to constrict the opponent the following round.

I didn't notice that. Well the new version looks good. Sorry i have only been half here because of work.

 

[Cleon]

I didn't notice that. Well the new version looks good. Sorry i have only been half here because of work.

That's fine. Looks like it's the Constrict attack next.

Since we've got two forms of tail attack I think that's going to be a little more complicated than the default version. Also, we need to consider how it interacts with the Foxfire Aura special ability. How's this?

Constrict (Ex): A hu lung has two forms of constrict attack it can make against an opponent it has grappled.

It can simply maintain its hold and inflict foxfire damage equal to its foxfire tail touch attack of 1d8 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon (no Strength adjustment).

Alternatively, the hu lung can crush the opponent with its tail. On a successful grapple check, the constrict attack inflicts damage equal to the hu lung's foxfire tail slap attack. On an unsuccessful grapple check, the opponent does not take any bludgeoning damage but still suffers the foxfire damage of the tail slap (1d4 foxfire damage per age category of the dragon).

The only way an opponent can avoid taking foxfire damage from a hu lung's constrict attack is by escaping from the hu lung's grapple before the dragon performs the grapple check. If a hu lung is using its Foxfire Aura special ability the opponent will suffer foxfire damage from the aura in addition to the foxfire damage from the constrict attack.

Hmm… upon reflection, I'm thinking we have the Improved Grapple and Constrict the wrong way around - wouldn't it make more sense for the hu lung to acquire Constrict before Improved Grab?

i.e. swap them around so it gets Constrict at very young and Improved Grab at Young.

 

[Debby]

If you give it Constrict first, then it doesn't cause constriction damage until after it has Improved Grab.

Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

 

[Cleon]

If you give it Constrict first, then it doesn't cause constriction damage until after it has Improved Grab.

Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

Eh? The above passage says a creature can do constriction damage by making a successful grapple check regardless of whether it has improved grab.

If it has Improved Grab it can potentially do constriction damage "in addition" to the damage of the natural weapon that makes the improved grab attack. (i.e. its part of the same action). So a constrictor snake, for example, can make a melee bite attack and if it hits it can make an improved grab grapple check and if that succeeds it can make a constrict grapple check to do its constrict damage.

If a Hu Lung has constrict but not improved grab it would mean the dragon would have to obtain a hold using a regular grapple attack before it can make constrict attacks as separate actions.

Anyway, I'm OK leaving it the way it is.

Actually, this conversion is kind of stuck since I was waiting for Nookie to reply - it didn't seem quite right to carry on without Nookie since they started this thread in the first place.