Martial Dailies - How so?

[GnomeWorks]

How often does the critter you're fighting open itself up to your attack in such a way that you can land your mighty smite on it? About once a day.

Alright, I suppose that is sensical. That still leaves the question of the ranger's double-shot. There is no "the critters leave an opening" there. You grab two arrows and shoot them simultaneously.

Simply consider it a "lucky blow". Meaning, although you the player declare you wish to do it, the character executes the attack without making a conscious effort to do so.

There is nothing lucky about grabbing two arrows as opposed to one. That seems to be a rather conscious decision.

The power names and usage are simply a game mechanic to illustrate on paper what happens.

There should not be a complete disconnect, and that is what I am seeing here.

I don't think there's any real-world way to justify daily martial powers. I believe they are daily partly for balance reasons but also to give the designers leeway to create really heroic maneuvers without worrying about the players using them to the exclusion of everything else.

I recognize that it's a design thing; it does seem rather easy to balance the daily powers. I don't have an issue with that, and think that the at-will/encounter/daily paradigm works rather nicely. I just want simulationist rationalization for some of the stranger martial daily powers.

Conan might cleave a soldier in half and carrying the momentum lop off another soldier's head, but he doesn't do it in every battle.

I'm not a fan of 4e's whole "you're a hero, so you must do heroic things!" shtick, but I'm not really interested in discussing that - I recognize that 4e is not targeted at me, in that regard, and I'm fine with that.

It can be a variety of things, the placement of the enemies, perhaps your hands are shaking too much from adrenaline and cannot hold the two arrows, etc.

That seems rather weak. I realize that nocking two arrows and firing them with any accuracy would be more difficult than nocking one, but to the extent that you can only shoot two once a day?

Your argument would make sense to me if it were an encounter power, but I just don't buy it for a daily.

There are many reasons why the chances of you pulling of the move is too the point where it is only once-per-day. View it less like... A move, where the character decides to do this specific move and more a narrative control of the battle where the character manages to pull of this amazing feat.

Sorry, I don't buy the narrativist reasoning, either. The mechanics are an abstracted representation of the game world, and while it does not necessarily always have to be a perfect representation, actions you take at the table should reflect actions taken by the character.

keterys nailed it. To me, the martial power source is the *easiest* power source to conceive as having only one use of a daily power. It represents that supreme effort, that amazing feat that takes everything you've got.

Sure. That sounds reasonable, and I'm sure that - for some martial dailies - that explanation works.

But nocking two arrows and shooting them with any accuracy does not seem, at least to me, to be in the same category as what you describe.

The only way I can reconcile it is the same way as Fallen Seraph says above. A daily power represents the player's opportunity to take over the story for a moment and say "The foe my character is fighting is in position for the Triple Dragon Strike of Doom." Then the character performs the Triple Dragon Strike of Doom. As far as I can tell, the decision to use a martial daily power is a player decision, not a character decision.

Again, not a fan of the narrativist reasoning, either. I'm looking for a strictly simulationist explanation.

Now if All martial dailies were Reliable, the sports analogy would work a lot better from a simulationist viewpoint.

This would be much more sensical to me. If the ranger's double-shot were reliable, I think I might have fewer issues with it... but then again, maybe not.

Even if it is reliable, that would mean that - as soon as you successfully use it - you can't do it anymore. That raises another set of issues all on its own.

From a strictly simulationist point of view, there is no way to justify it. If you can do it once in a day, you can do it twice.

I want to make sense out of it. I'm rather certain that there is a way to do so, I'm just not sure what it is.

 

[Storminator]

The only way I can reconcile it is the same way as Fallen Seraph says above. A daily power represents the player's opportunity to take over the story for a moment and say "The foe my character is fighting is in position for the Triple Dragon Strike of Doom." Then the character performs the Triple Dragon Strike of Doom. As far as I can tell, the decision to use a martial daily power is a player decision, not a character decision.

Apply this thinking to the next analogy:

Unless the golfer can decide before playing a hole that he will get an Eagle, then the analogy is not a very good one.

Only the golfer's player can decide to use his Eagle-From-Fairway power.

PS

 

[ZappoHisbane]

Now if All martial dailies were Reliable, the sports analogy would work a lot better from a simulationist viewpoint.

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that most will be. That's not all of course, but it's the best we're gonna get.

 

[alaric]

We only have three martial dailies to look at, but so far I don't see any problems. The fluff of Split of Tree mentions firing two arrows at the same time, but there is nothing mechanically that enforces it. It's just as easy to say that the Ranger fired two arrows in quick succession. The timing and ordering of a round is already highly abstract, all that really means in the game world is that at one point the ranger pulled off two quick shots that both landed well.

We've got the Fighters Brute Strike power, which really is just extra damage, again an abstract concept. The sports analogy works here, this is the player deciding that now is the time that his character get's lucky, or dials it to 11, or whatnot, and lands that killer blow.

The last is Crimson Edge, which gets you extra damage, ongoing damage, and combat advantage to the rogue. Same as Brute Strike, this is that one good blow that really lands solid, leaving the opponent bleeding/stunned/distracted.

The daily powers (especially for martial classes), are one of my favorite things in 4E. It follows part of the general 4E trend of giving some degree of storytelling responsibility to the players. When the chips are down and everything is on the line the player can decide that now is the time I get to be the big damn hero. The end result is a good story, which is all I'm looking for.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well most Dailies if not all, if they aren't Reliant will have a Miss-Ability or an Effect anyways, so they won't be completely non-hitting.

 

[Storminator]

Alright, I suppose that is sensical. That still leaves the question of the ranger's double-shot. There is no "the critters leave an opening" there. You grab two arrows and shoot them simultaneously.

The odds of the double shot working are so low, it almost always fails. Allow your players to use double-shot at will. Then only give them one attack roll, as the second arrow flies off in a random direction.

There's just that one, rare, time when it actually works as intended.

PS

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

Hi, my two cents:

In answer to the two arrow shot, I think that the specific circumstances surrounding the action can still apply. The ranger has obviously trained long and hard at this particular feat. He knows when the situation is just right. Wind direction, distance the targets are apart etc. (a whole host of factors could be made up.) the opportunity to actually be successful with his double shot is a rare thing, impossible for the layman, I daresay impossible for most other rangers even.

In game terms I would say that the ranger is welcome to shoot 2 arrows whenever but with all the training he has done to perfect the shot - he would know when circumstances are right.

If he were practicing against a couple of trees I would allow multiple attempts, as with the rogue and fighter. In actual combat the clarity and situation dictate that the attempt is only going to work once/day (perhaps with training more often - dependant on feats etc.)

I hope that helps - unless I was waffling to much.

 

[GnomeWorks]

There's just that one, rare, time when it actually works as intended.

...and yet, it seems to work at least once a day for someone, and never more than that?

That seems... unlikely.

 

[Warbringer]

I think the way to look at is the hero (your character) is always looking for the opening that he can use the best attack. In the heat of combat he's constantly engaged in the back and forth of combat, attempting to lure the opponent, feinting to create opportunities until low and behold an opening!

In a fast flowing combat this works much better than...

You can use this power whenever your opponent has moved two spaces forward onto to rough ground, is using a longsword and shield and missed you after attempting a power attack against you

Now that would be MtG in our beloved game...

 

[Storminator]

...and yet, it seems to work at least once a day for someone, and never more than that?

That seems... unlikely.

No. There's a chance it works once a day. You still have to make your attack rolls.

At some point you're going to have to relax, man. It's only going to get justified to a point.

Or not.

PS