D&D 5E I want skills decoupled from stats. Suggestions?

[Satyrn]

Okay. Another idea. Rough idea.

Create another one or two categories of "Proficient" skills.

Tier 1 skills use proficiency bonus and a +4 skill bonus.
Tier 2 skills use proficiency bonus and a +2 skill bonus.
Tier 3 skill just apply the proficiency bonus.

They gain the skill bonus (not called proficiency bonus so it isn't affected by expertise) instead of the stat bonus.

Then, you just gotta figure out how these tiers get decided. Like, maybe the class skills are Tier 1, the background skills are tier 2 (or reverse that) and then perhaps allow the player to select a couple more tier 3 skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm guessing that simplicity is not your motivation for working on this? I have to ask, then: why decouple skills from abilities?

The proficiency system works just fine, so I'd keep that. STR, DEX, and CON seem to have non-skill related uses...but do the other abilities have uses once they're decoupled? I guess they boost spellcasting...

Adding skill points in seems to just reintroduce ability bonuses (under a different name). If you want to go that route, I recommend throwing out the proficiency bonus too, adding Combat, Dodge, and saving throws as skills, and going 100% skill points, and no abilities at all.

1. Complexity is a weird word to use. I wouldn't rate the idea of having a pool of skill points to assign as complex. At least if it is complex at least acknowledge that it's really no more complex than point buy which is a preferred stat generation method of many people. In fact in some ways I could even make the case that this concept is less complex than the current system. A player no longer has to try to tweak stats and skill proficiencies (two different systems that affect skills and other things) in order to play the character he wants.

2. I like the proficiency system. I've said since post 1 that i'm keeping it exactly the same.

3. Every stat has non skill related uses. (It mostly depends on the class you are for which ones though)

4. The advice you are giving is to recouple combat ability back into skills by introducing a combat skill. That defeats the entire purpose of doing this in the first place. I want how my character fights to have little bearing on who my character is when he isn't fighting

5. You asked for my motivation? It's simple. 5e's standard stat and skill and combat systems are so interwined and restrictive that I can't easily make the characters I want to make.

Yet another example of what can't be done with 5e system. I can't make a highly persuasive character that sucks at deception. To be highly persuasive I must have a good cha and proficiency. I'm restricted to being fair at deception if I am very good at persuasion. There's soo many more examples as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay. Another idea. Rough idea.

Create another one or two categories of "Proficient" skills.

Tier 1 skills use proficiency bonus and a +4 skill bonus.
Tier 2 skills use proficiency bonus and a +2 skill bonus.
Tier 3 skill just apply the proficiency bonus.

They gain the skill bonus (not called proficiency bonus so it isn't affected by expertise) instead of the stat bonus.

Then, you just gotta figure out how these tiers get decided. Like, maybe the class skills are Tier 1, the background skills are tier 2 (or reverse that) and then perhaps allow the player to select a couple more tier 3 skills.

Sure, I think it could work. That said you could view my system the same way just with more tiers.

Tier 1, +5
Tier 2, +4
...
Tier 7, -2

And instead of trying to rely on skill proficiencies I let you apply these bonuses to any skill you want. I feel restricting the tiers to class skills and background skills really hurts the flexibility of such a system which is what I am really after. Flexibility.

 

[Satyrn]

I feel restricting the tiers to class skills and background skills really hurts the flexibility of such a system which is what I am really after. Flexibility.

Well, totally spitballing

(But I just gotta compulsively point out that standard rules for backgrounds is that you can pick any 2 skills you want; the ones listed really are just suggestions)

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, totally spitballing

(But I just gotta compulsively point out that standard rules for backgrounds is that you can pick any 2 skills you want; the ones listed really are just suggestions)

Yea I always allow that. Though it is a little known rule and worth pointing out.

Ideas are good. Keep them coming in.

So far I've gotta say this idea has been pretty well received considering how any kind of change to 5e usually isn't well received on these boards.

 

[Satyrn]

Yea I always allow that. Though it is a little known rule and worth pointing out.

Ideas are good. Keep them coming in.

So far I've gotta say this idea has been pretty well received considering how any kind of change to 5e usually isn't well received on these boards.

I find we just get really grouchy when the suggested change comes with a heavy dose of "5e did it WRONG." We are rather protective/defensive but we are also a board full of tinkerers.

 

[bid]

I think it's better if there's some room for middle ground instead of the all or nothing nature proficiency alone would give to skills.

I believe you want something smaller than the +6 from high-level proficiency. That is an interesting goal.

Bringing back skill points goes against 5e simplicity. I just don't see a +2 as significant enough to deserve complexities.

That being said, if you wish to mimic the current scale, you should double the cost of getting +2/+3 at level 1.

 

[Lanefan]

Yet another example of what can't be done with 5e system. I can't make a highly persuasive character that sucks at deception. To be highly persuasive I must have a good cha and proficiency. I'm restricted to being fair at deception if I am very good at persuasion.

This particular example might simply have to be roleplayed as being poor at deception while intentionally ignoring the numbers on your sheet.

The idea of divorcing skills from stats does raise some questions: how does this change the "value" of the different stats, and will it drive players to put more high numbers into physical (i.e. combat) stats as the non-physical stats aren't as necessary any more for driving skill bonuses? Will this turn charisma back to being every non-sorcerer's dump stat?

Which reminds me: the idea of a rough tough fighter type getting penalties to 'intimidate' from a low charisma score is ludicrous. I'd say it should be the opposite: a low charisma should benefit your intimidate as you're clearly scarier than the pretty boy sitting next to you...

Lan-"the other option, of course, is to drop the skill system almost entirely - but it sounds like you want to keep it in some form"-efan

 

[FrogReaver]

I believe you want something smaller than the +6 from high-level proficiency. That is an interesting goal.

Bringing back skill points goes against 5e simplicity. I just don't see a +2 as significant enough to deserve complexities.

That being said, if you wish to mimic the current scale, you should double the cost of getting +2/+3 at level 1.

Why do I get the feeling that no one is listening to me.

Proficiency stays the same in my proposal. Stat bonus is replaced by skill points. You still get +6 proficiency and +5 from skill points if you want. That's the same total as you can max out in the game now.

 

[discosoc]

How does one best decouple skills from stats in 5e? My current thought is keeping stats for combat and special ability purposes but eliminating the stat bonus to skills. Proficiency to skills would be handled the same. However, instead of stat bonus to skills you would get maybe 20-30 skill points to set your skills however you wanted. All skills would start at -2 and you could spend skill points on them until they reach +3 base (+5 with proficiency added to it). At each level you take an ASI you would get 2 more skill points that must be placed in different skills. All skills can be raised to +5 by the skill points from ASI's (or +11 total with max proficiency bonus).

Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?

What problem are you trying to solve?