D&D 5E I want skills decoupled from stats. Suggestions?

[FrogReaver]

How does one best decouple skills from stats in 5e? My current thought is keeping stats for combat and special ability purposes but eliminating the stat bonus to skills. Proficiency to skills would be handled the same. However, instead of stat bonus to skills you would get maybe 20-30 skill points to set your skills however you wanted. All skills would start at -2 and you could spend skill points on them until they reach +3 base (+5 with proficiency added to it). At each level you take an ASI you would get 2 more skill points that must be placed in different skills. All skills can be raised to +5 by the skill points from ASI's (or +11 total with max proficiency bonus).

Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?

 

[Ratskinner]

This is one of those tricky things...it's like the first suggestion I make triggers another suggestion...and then another...and suddenly we're rewriting D&D to be Fate or something.

A) Some classes get more skills than others, so you'll need to address that.

B) I recommend an array of bonuses, rather than points (slots). Points are very fiddly, and can slow character creation. In contrast, using an array, players can even start without the whole array filled out and choose the remainders in play.

C) The huge lists of proficiencies, tools, etc....how would you handle those?

 

[FrogReaver]

This is one of those tricky things...it's like the first suggestion I make triggers another suggestion...and then another...and suddenly we're rewriting D&D to be Fate or something.

A) Some classes get more skills than others, so you'll need to address that.

B) I recommend an array of bonuses, rather than points (slots). Points are very fiddly, and can slow character creation. In contrast, using an array, players can even start without the whole array filled out and choose the remainders in play.

C) The huge lists of proficiencies, tools, etc....how would you handle those?

A) skill proficiencies are still intact. Nothing is changed there.
B) I'm not comprehending the array method. Elaborate?
C) There are only 19 skill proficiencies (unless I can't count). Tools just add proficiency bonus to a check you otherwise wouldn't be proficient in. I don't see anything changing there.

 

[Raith5]

Is it realistic though? Surely a high strength guy should be better at athletics than a weakling.

But I think I agree with your premise. I would like to see a wider range of stat bonuses and I like skill point options.

One idea that may be to combine or fork in useful stats for a skill - ie make arcana involve both INT and WIS or aths for climbing involve STR + DEX (either by average of the two or combine them in some way).

 

[Ratskinner]

A) skill proficiencies are still intact. Nothing is changed there.
B) I'm not comprehending the array method. Elaborate?
C) There are only 19 skill proficiencies (unless I can't count). Tools just add proficiency bonus to a check you otherwise wouldn't be proficient in. I don't see anything changing there.

A) If I have to pay for the base bonuses individually, it seems likely that I'll be "shorted" on some of the skill bonuses that I would have under the current system. (How much would depend on the method of character creation and possibly attribute rolls.) See below. This also, I suspect, would create a disproportionate burden on the "skillsy" or "smart" classes vs the "dumb" classes. That is, replacing the skill points from a High Int (5 skills), Wis (5 skills), or Cha (4 skills) would cost more than replacing those from Con (0 skills) or Str (1 skill). This could be compensated for by making Fighting, Might (melee damage), Shooting, and even Resilience (bonus HP) into skills, but then...are you playing D&D anymore?

B) An array would allow you to specify how many skills at each bonus. So you might have something like: Choose two skills at +3, three at +2, and three at +1. That would be the equivalent of 31 points if each bonus costs one point, and only 8 skills with positive bonuses (pre-proficiency, if I understand your suggestion).

A&B) That's a significant loss vs. the current system (typically).* I might alternatively suggest that you start skills with a base of 0, and allow 3 skills to be reduced to -2 to gain further points. Of course, one could argue that the specificity of choosing the skills would be worth the loss.

C) Right you are. I was still thinking like previous editions. (Presuming you intend to maintain Ability bonuses to the relevant checks.)

*Standard array has only one ability score with a negative modifier. Potentially, that's no or only one skill(s) with a default negative modifier. Even if you "dump" Intelligence and/or Wisdom, that's still nine skills with a positive base modifier.

 

[bid]

Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?

Simplify.

All proficient skills are +proficiency+2. All others are +0.

It's easier to adjust DC than to complexify skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it realistic though? Surely a high strength guy should be better at athletics than a weakling.

But I think I agree with your premise. I would like to see a wider range of stat bonuses and I like skill point options.

One idea that may be to combine or fork in useful stats for a skill - ie make arcana involve both INT and WIS or aths for climbing involve STR + DEX (either by average of the two or combine them in some way).

Realistic? probably not in extreme cases like making an 8 str wizard very athletic. Then again I don't think the current skill system is very realistic and has its own flaws if as closely examined as my proposal is being examined. For example: the Huge Burly Fighter not being intimidating because he somehow has an 8 charisma...

Ultimately I'm willing to sacrifice the few unrealistic possibilities that come up in such a system for the vast number of realistic possibilities that are not allowed by the current coupling of the stat and skill system. I'd rather the players have the option of playing a character that more closely resembles their vision than forcing them into a more restrictive system because someone may create a very atheletic 8 str wizard sometime (and that's assuming that someone somewhere can't think of a good fluff reason for having a low str athletic wizard).

I really don't like the 2 stat concept for a default. I can see it's use as an occasional alternative though. Doing the average of 2-3 skills could be useful in some situations too.

 

[FrogReaver]

Simplify.

All proficient skills are +proficiency+2. All others are +0.

It's easier to adjust DC than to complexify skills.

I think it's better if there's some room for middle ground instead of the all or nothing nature proficiency alone would give to skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

A) If I have to pay for the base bonuses individually, it seems likely that I'll be "shorted" on some of the skill bonuses that I would have under the current system. (How much would depend on the method of character creation and possibly attribute rolls.) See below. This also, I suspect, would create a disproportionate burden on the "skillsy" or "smart" classes vs the "dumb" classes. That is, replacing the skill points from a High Int (5 skills), Wis (5 skills), or Cha (4 skills) would cost more than replacing those from Con (0 skills) or Str (1 skill). This could be compensated for by making Fighting, Might (melee damage), Shooting, and even Resilience (bonus HP) into skills, but then...are you playing D&D anymore?

B) An array would allow you to specify how many skills at each bonus. So you might have something like: Choose two skills at +3, three at +2, and three at +1. That would be the equivalent of 31 points if each bonus costs one point, and only 8 skills with positive bonuses (pre-proficiency, if I understand your suggestion).

A&B) That's a significant loss vs. the current system (typically).* I might alternatively suggest that you start skills with a base of 0, and allow 3 skills to be reduced to -2 to gain further points. Of course, one could argue that the specificity of choosing the skills would be worth the loss.

C) Right you are. I was still thinking like previous editions. (Presuming you intend to maintain Ability bonuses to the relevant checks.)

*Standard array has only one ability score with a negative modifier. Potentially, that's no or only one skill(s) with a default negative modifier. Even if you "dump" Intelligence and/or Wisdom, that's still nine skills with a positive base modifier.

A. The "are you playing D&D" question gets old fast. It can be said of any change or houserule anyone proposes ever. I don't care that my proposed system isn't capable of producing the exact same skill combinations for some classes as they can get under the current system. Close enough comes to mind and the point total can always be adjusted till I get it right. If I did care about classes being able to perfectly reproduce their current skill bonuses it would be a trivial fix by giving the "mental" classes more points or a higher array. I don't think it's a big deal though and I honestly think it would have a positive side effect. Anything that brings non-primary casters more in line with primary casters for out of combat stuff is good! IMO.

B) I like the array idea as a variant option. It'd be similar to the difference between array and point buy. Both are nice to have and let different tables pick their preference.

C) I don't really want to maintain ability modifiers for tool checks but I see no other way to do it.

 

[GMMichael]

How does one best decouple skills from stats in 5e? My current thought is keeping stats for combat and special ability purposes but eliminating the stat bonus to skills. Proficiency to skills would be handled the same. However, instead of stat bonus to skills you would get maybe 20-30 skill points to set your skills however you wanted. All skills would start at -2 and you could spend skill points on them until they reach +3 base (+5 with proficiency added to it). At each level you take an ASI you would get 2 more skill points that must be placed in different skills. All skills can be raised to +5 by the skill points from ASI's (or +11 total with max proficiency bonus).

I'm guessing that simplicity is not your motivation for working on this? I have to ask, then: why decouple skills from abilities?

The proficiency system works just fine, so I'd keep that. STR, DEX, and CON seem to have non-skill related uses...but do the other abilities have uses once they're decoupled? I guess they boost spellcasting...

Adding skill points in seems to just reintroduce ability bonuses (under a different name). If you want to go that route, I recommend throwing out the proficiency bonus too, adding Combat, Dodge, and saving throws as skills, and going 100% skill points, and no abilities at all.