Flat Healing Without Using a Surge--Infinite Daily HP?

[Rystil Arden]

So, is there anything preventing the set of powers (such as Sunburst, but there are others) that are per encounter, heal a set amount, and do not spend a surge from giving a group effectively infinite daily HP? This seems like an unusual oversight, considering the overall effort to prevent this (including nerfing Healing Potions into uselessness). Sunburst does not require any enemies to be i nthe burst, so the significant threat clause does not affect its use at all, so let's not talk about that.

 

[keterys]

Other than the possibility of running out of enemies that are credible threats*, I guess not. Interesting.

* Which is a real restriction.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So, is there anything preventing the set of powers (such as Renewing Smite, but there are others) that are per encounter, heal a set amount, and do not spend a surge from giving a group effectively infinite daily HP? This seems like an unusual oversight, considering the overall effort to prevent this (including nerfing Healing Potions into uselessness).

They are limited to actually having targets that are valid for them. The game is entirely balanced around the idea that PCs fight between 3-5 encounters per day and they never run into enemies that are considered valid targets outside of that.

I can't remember at this time if there are any powers with are encounter and heal you without using a surge that don't require attacking an enemy, but I don't think there is.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Other than the possibility of running out of enemies that are credible threats*, I guess not. Interesting.

* Which is a real restriction.

The 'credible threat' thing is inherently sketchy and rather annoying considering the near-removal of such things in 4e. In addition to the obvious exploit-tactics involving prisoners who are captured and released one-by-one for bloodsport, there are viable and reasonable strategies that would allow this to work ad infinitum without stretching character, such as a stealthy assassin who gets one of these guys with a multiclass feat and launches many small ambuscades, healing any attrition via one of these abilities. I mean, except in the most railroaded of games where you always encounter exactly what the GM had planned ahead of time no matter what choices you make, there are going to be situations where you come across credible threats plenty of times in short bursts.

 

[mattdm]

In addition to the obvious exploit-tactics involving prisoners who are captured and released one-by-one for bloodsport, [...]

Either that breaks the "credible threat" restriction, or else it's not really a problem. Sure, have 100 encounters a day if that's what you really want.

[...]there are viable and reasonable strategies that would allow this to work ad infinitum without stretching character, such as a stealthy assassin who gets one of these guys with a multiclass feat and launches many small ambuscades, healing any attrition via one of these abilities.

There's a certain number of people slain ("one", in most cases) where your ability to be stealthy and do the same thing over and over is seriously strained.

I mean, except in the most railroaded of games where you always encounter exactly what the GM had planned ahead of time no matter what choices you make, there are going to be situations where you come across credible threats plenty of times in short bursts.

Excellent. Good thing you have per-encounter healing powers, then, eh?

 

[AndrewRogue]

So... through complex, convoluted and time consuming means that can actually cost you HP in the end (and, further, can easily be shut down by a DM simply declaring certain enemy types to not be credible threats in a given situation)... you can eventually heal back to full without any healing surges.

You could also take a six hour break and heal fully AND get all your healing surges back.

I'm not seeing where option A is really superior to option B.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Either that breaks the "credible threat" restriction, or else it's not really a problem. Sure, have 100 encounters a day if that's what you really want.

It's just as much a credible threat as, say, a minion in a regular encounter, which is always assumed to be a credible threat or else lots of things wouldn't work. The 'credible threat infinite healing' mechanic was silly in 3.5 when it was first created, and it is even dumber in 4e when they've done a pretty good job otherwise of limiting daily healing.

And hey, you don't have to go unnoticed to keep making ambuscades. I can give some good examples from KotS where an encounter could be easily returned to over and over again and then fled by elves or those with Fast Runner. The enemies would have no choice unless they abandoned their home to prevent these raids, in which case, the PCs win anyway. I'm sure that this will often be the case--from the monsters I've seen, PC ability to sneak around and get away if necessary is not significantly curtailed vis-a-vis enemies at higher levels.

4e does a pretty darn good job of discouraging these and other similar tactics in general. They should eliminate the sketchy and poorly-thought-out 'credible threat' mechanic to eliminate the chances for infinite healing.

Here's an easy fix--allow the healing to work a number of times per day equal to your (secondary stat) modifier. For the Paladin power's case, since the power uses Wisdom as a secondary, that won't be a real limit in most cases unless someone is trying to abuse it, and it mirrors the limit on Lay on Hands.

 

[Ydars]

This should sort that situation out. The following excerpt from the DMG specifically disallows this (if you need such permissions from banning such things from your games).

When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting a
target—or reducing a target to 0 hit points—the power
functions only when the target in question is a meaningful
threat. Characters can gain no benefit from
carrying a sack of rats in hopes of healing their allies
by hitting the rats.

This is from page 40 DMG.

I would extend this to say that such use of a power is rampant META-GAMING, and is also specifically disallowed by the rules.

And honestly, this is a PALADIN power we are talking about. Do you really imagine that a patron god is going to be happy with this sort of behaviour?

I have a better idea; why don't we encourage everyone to play to the spririt of the rules instead of just obeying the letter but trying to "break" them!

 

[nittanytbone]

The 'credible threat' thing is inherently sketchy and rather annoying considering the near-removal of such things in 4e. In addition to the obvious exploit-tactics involving prisoners who are captured and released one-by-one for bloodsport...

That's why 4E also assumes that the characters are mostly good.

As for continually harrying small detachments, it is up to the GM to make it exciting. If the players work out a scheme so that they can continually face nothing but encounters more than -3 below their level, then instead of playing out all the combats on the battlemap I would instead reduce it to a skill challenge off screen. Or let them plow through an easy one, handwave the wiping out of another half dozen patrols, then play out the encounter where a capable Captain and his Bodyguard happen to be among the ambushees.

 

[Rystil Arden]

This should sort that situation out. The following excerpt from the DMG specifically disallows this (if you need such permissions from banning such things from your games).

When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting a
target—or reducing a target to 0 hit points—the power
functions only when the target in question is a meaningful
threat. Characters can gain no benefit from
carrying a sack of rats in hopes of healing their allies
by hitting the rats.

This is from page 40 DMG.

I would extend this to say that such use of a power is rampant META-GAMING, and is also specifically disallowed by the rules.

And honestly, this is a PALADIN power we are talking about. Do you really imagine that a patron god is going to be happy with this sort of behaviour?

I have a better idea; why don't we encourage everyone to play to the spririt of the rules instead of just obeying the letter but trying to "break" them!

If a certain monster is a significant threat, then it's a significant threat, yes? Nothing stops you from KOing the same monster (particularly a minion) that is actually a significant threat many times. Having to make the judgment call is annoying, and seriously problematic for beginner GMs, which should be something 4e aims to avoid, since it is aimed at expanding the GM base to just such GMs.

Where do you draw the line? What about a monster that the party Wizard has put to sleep with a Sleep effect. And it's the last monster in an expected planned encounter. Can the Paladin finish it off and heal her allies? Okay, what if the party Wizard is an Orb Wizard who has put the monster to sleep for over 50 rounds. Can the Paladin do it twice? If not, what if it's a really dangerous monster like an elite? Would stunned instead of asleep make it okay?

It's just a pain. I know how I would rule (very very strictly and disallow the healing in almost any case), but that doesn't mean a reasonable GM might not reasonably differ. And, especially a beginner GM, they might get into a rough corner.