Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings

[freyar]

Hmm, I thought the wooden juggernaut base construct was like a standard golem --- it only becomes a "remote control" construct when the pilot is activated and it gains the template. If it can't act on its own, it's not a construct, it's an object.

The construction section looks pretty reasonable. If we want to have a line about larger juggernauts or extra HD, we really should have non-nil advancement line, though.

 

[Cleon]

Hmm, I thought the wooden juggernaut base construct was like a standard golem --- it only becomes a "remote control" construct when the pilot is activated and it gains the template. If it can't act on its own, it's not a construct, it's an object.

If it bothers you it's easily rephrased.

I'm thinking perhaps we should have separate tactics entries for the enhanced version.

COMBAT
These mindless constructs are incapable of developing tactics of their own, but fight according to whatever instructions their masters give them.

COMBAT
An enhanced juggernaut normally has weapons and armor in its spiritual equipment slots and uses these and its special attacks in combat, fighting in whatever manner it is ordered to.

The construction section looks pretty reasonable. If we want to have a line about larger juggernauts or extra HD, we really should have non-nil advancement line, though.

Yes. I'm divided on the issue and would be UK cutting out the extra HD bit.

We've got a size table in the Template that goes up to Colossal which suggests we should allow for the possibility of Advancement, but then all the juggernauts in the original source are the same size and standard 3E animated objects don't have advancement.

We could make it so only "Enhanced Wooden Juggernauts" have advancement and the basic model has nil advancement?

If we do do the latter, I guess we could go for a normal progression:

Advancement: Huge (6-10 HD), Gargantuan (11-20 HD) or Colossal (21-30 HD)

But I'd be tempted to smooth it out:

Advancement: Huge (6-10 HD), Gargantuan (11-15 HD) or Colossal (16-20 HD)

 

[freyar]

I like the separate tactics entries and giving advancement (your second advancement line) only to the enhanced version.

Do you mind updating both the basic and enhanced versions, so we can see where we are?

 

[Cleon]

I like the separate tactics entries and giving advancement (your second advancement line) only to the enhanced version.

Do you mind updating both the basic and enhanced versions, so we can see where we are?

Sure!

Updating Wooden Juggernaut Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

This all looks good, and CR 6 is probably ok for the wooden version. What were you thinking for the increased costs?

 

[Cleon]

This all looks good, and CR 6 is probably ok for the wooden version. What were you thinking for the increased costs?

Don't you mean "OK for the enhanced version"?

Hadn't settled on anything definite for the increased costs.

Maybe 15,000 gp with 2,000 gp for the materials?

Actually I'm starting to wonder whether 1,000 gp is too much for the basic model's materials cost. They're made from ordinary wood in the original source, just a lot of it!

How many times more expensive is the "high quality wood" the Wooden Lady and Wood "Cheese Press" Golem are made out of compared to regular lumber? How much does it save not having to use "exotic oils and herbal preparations"?

Maybe we should make it, say, 500 gp for the standard wooden juggernaut's materials and 1,000 gp for the enhanced version?

 

[freyar]

Uhh, yes, CR 6 for the enhanced version.

I can go with 500 gp for the standard juggernaut's materials and 15,000 gp and 1,000 gp for the enhanced version.

Background: Wooden juggernauts are simple constructs commonly used for the creation of piloted guardian juggernauts (see the guardian juggernaut template). Sometimes, wooden juggernauts are built with more powerful combat abilities and the capacity to wield spiritual equipment like guardian juggernauts.

Seem ok? I feel like it should be pretty basic.

 

[Cleon]

Uhh, yes, CR 6 for the enhanced version.

I can go with 500 gp for the standard juggernaut's materials and 15,000 gp and 1,000 gp for the enhanced version.

Updating Wooden Juggernaut Working Draft.

Background: Wooden juggernauts are simple constructs commonly used for the creation of piloted guardian juggernauts (see the guardian juggernaut template). Sometimes, wooden juggernauts are built with more powerful combat abilities and the capacity to wield spiritual equipment like guardian juggernauts.

Seem ok? I feel like it should be pretty basic.

Hmm, wouldn't it be more appropriate to split that between the "standard" and "enhanced" versions of this construct rather than put it all in one entry?

i.e.:

An enormous statue crudely but sturdily assembled out of wood.

Wooden juggernauts are simple constructs that are the commonest base model used to create guardian juggernauts (see the guardian juggernaut template). Comparatively cheap and easy to manufacture, they may be far weaker than a true golem of the same size but even relatively poor communities can afford to make them.

A typical wooden juggernaut stands 30 feet tall and weighs about 20,000 pounds.

Hmm… come to think of that, is that too light? That scales down to 160 pounds for a 6 foot juggernaut. Shouldn't it be a bit heftier, like say 200 pounds? Also it allows for no wastage in the manufacture since the Construction entry says it requires 20,000 pounds of wood to make one.

I suppose they are partially hollow (if only due to equipment slots) so it could be comparatively light, but I think we'd better allow for some wastage in the material requirements.

The Wood Press Golem was 200 pounds for 250 pounds of construction wood, so I'll use that ratio and make it weigh 20,000 pounds with 25,000 pounds of construction wood.

CONSTRUCTION
A wooden juggernaut is crafted from 25,000 pounds of wood with a materials cost of 500 gp.

For the Enhanced Version:

Enhanced Wooden Juggernauts
Some wooden juggernauts are built with more powerful combat abilities and the capacity to wield spiritual equipment like guardian juggernauts.

Apply the following changes to the basic wooden juggernaut.

Special Attacks: Stomp, Sweep
Special Qualities: Spiritual equipment
Advancement: Huge (6-10 HD), Gargantuan (11-15 HD) or Colossal (16-20 HD)
Challenge Rating: 6

Enhanced wooden juggernauts can be built with more HD and larger sizes than standard wooden juggernauts. See the Construction section for details.

* * *

We've still got quite a few bits of red text left in the Construction entry of the Enhanced Wooden Juggernaut.

 

[freyar]

The background, size, and weight seem fine for me. You just need to add a comma before the "but even relatively poor" in the second sentence of the background.

The enhanced version looks fine, too. In terms of the red Construction text, I'm inclined to bump the CL to 9th and Craft DCs to 17. Do you think maybe an extra 1000gp per HD? I think I'd only add to the materials cost with an increase in size. I'm not sure about the extra cost per size category. Perhaps +10,000 gp for Gargantuan and +40,000 gp for Colossal with a correspondingly increased materials cost? Also, we should make the "if this increases the size" start a new sentence.

 

[Cleon]

The background, size, and weight seem fine for me. You just need to add a comma before the "but even relatively poor" in the second sentence of the background.

The enhanced version looks fine, too.

Updating Wooden Juggernaut Working Draft.

While doing so I fixed an error in the Grapple which should be +21 rather than +19. (BAB +3 plus Str +10 plus Size +8)

In terms of the red Construction text, I'm inclined to bump the CL to 9th and Craft DCs to 17. Do you think maybe an extra 1000gp per HD? I think I'd only add to the materials cost with an increase in size. I'm not sure about the extra cost per size category. Perhaps +10,000 gp for Gargantuan and +40,000 gp for Colossal with a correspondingly increased materials cost? Also, we should make the "if this increases the size" start a new sentence.

I'd be more inclined to make it CL 9th and DC 15. Making it DC 17 seems too high considering that's the DC of a Stone Golem, which has a significantly higher CR.

Speaking of Stone Golems, a Greater Stone Golem costs 105,000 gp to manufacture compared to the 50,000 gp of the base model. That's 55,000 gp more for one size category larger and 28 extra HD and a Challenge Rating 5 levels higher.

A Greater Stone Golem is that much better for an additional 55,000 gp then presumably a "max advanced" Wooden Juggernaut ought to be cheaper. Your proposed formula would make a Colossal 20 HD Wooden Juggernaut cost 65,000 gp which seems too high (+15,000 for the HD and +50,000 for the two size increases).

Reducing the price of the size increased seems the easiest solution. If we make it +5,000 for the first increase and +10,000 for the second that would make the total +30,000 gp for a Colossal Wooden Juggernaut.

Even that might be a bit too high. It might be easier deciding how much the "Greater Wooden Juggernaut" ought to cost and then back-tracking.

i.e. if the price of a 20 HD wooden juggernaut was, say, 32,000 gp that'd be 17,000 gp more than the base construct price and we could break it down as 600 gp per HD (total +9,000 gp) plus 3,000 gp for Gargantuan size and 5,000 gp for Colossal size.

It'd be a relatively simple matter to tweak those numbers to produce a different final price.

Which reminds me, we should also say what portion of the increased price is increased material cost. Presumably a Colossal wooden construct will require more wood to build than a Huge one.

The easiest option is to just ignore it, but the Greater Stone Golem's cost & price indicate that its materials cost 2,000 gp more than the standard model so I'm thinking maybe we ought to include it. Perhaps 1,000 gp of the Gargantuan size's 3,000 gp is extra material and 2,000 gp of the Colossal size's 5,000 gp?

Alternatively, we could make it some proportion of the price of the HD and/or size increase - maybe 10% of the HD price (so +60 gp of materials per HD) and 20% of the size price (so +600 gp of materials for Gargantuan and +1000 gp of materials for Colossal).

Any preferences?