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D&D 3E/3.5 A list of 3e problems and how they were tackled in PF

Imban

First Post
While I left it out of my original post for some reason, I think Bad Axe Games's Trailblazer (and probably some other products - it doesn't seem like an idea Wulf Ratbane could have generated whole-cloth, but I haven't really seen it before) attempted to present rules to make multiclassed spellcasters suck less in whatever flavor of d20-based D&D you were playing.

But by and large, Pathfinder is less radical of a departure from D&D on most issues than even, say, Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. It's a .5-ish revision like 3.5, and as with 3.5, there are a bunch of places where you see that they changed Bull's Strength (get 1d4+1 Strength for 1 hour/level, vs. 4 Strength for 1 minute/level) while leaving Candles of Invocation (wish for infinite wishes) the same. This doesn't negate any changes they made that you like, but it may leave you wishing they made more changes.
 

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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
While I left it out of my original post for some reason, I think Bad Axe Games's Trailblazer (and probably some other products - it doesn't seem like an idea Wulf Ratbane could have generated whole-cloth, but I haven't really seen it before) attempted to present rules to make multiclassed spellcasters suck less in whatever flavor of d20-based D&D you were playing.

Uhh, I'm not exactly sure how to take that but happy to answer any question you may or may not be asking...?
 

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
Was anything done to address:

a) Fighters (or other class with multiple attacks) getting the ability to miss 6 times in a turn while mages just roll damage for spells?

b) Simplify DM prep?

I enjoyed 3.5 as a player, I love 4e now, esp as a DM. Should i play in a 3.5 game, i'd probably want to use pf from what i've read so far in this thread.
 

buzzard

First Post
Was anything done to address:

a) Fighters (or other class with multiple attacks) getting the ability to miss 6 times in a turn while mages just roll damage for spells?

Fighters got some good beefing up with class abilities and a large expansion of combat feats. In their preferred weapon(class), they will have +5 to hit and +5 damage at 20th level. This is on top of anything else such as focus, BAB, and strength bonus. As I figure it, a 20th level fighter made out fairly normally (18 str at 1st level, easy with the +2 to chosen stat floating around) will have a +36 to hit before you pick up a magic weapon bonus (add in +18 damage on a one handed weapon). That's pretty respectable. They also get a nice class ability to make armor work better for them, increasing their mobility in armor (which gives more movement, less ACP, lowers the armor type- heavy, medium, light, and more dex bonus). At 20 their weapon gets a +1 to the crit multiplier and auto confirms.

Of course I'm not quite sure how a fighter got six attacks in your experience, though I guess he could be two weapon fighting.

b) Simplify DM prep?

The way the skills system has been simplified will do some of this. The XP system is simpler. I haven't been through all the book yet, so I can't say much more there.
 

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
Of course I'm not quite sure how a fighter got six attacks in your experience, though I guess he could be two weapon fighting.

My mistake, 4 attacks.
The question still remains, however, does the fighter still get 4 chances to fail per round while the mages just role damage dice?
 

buzzard

First Post
My mistake, 4 attacks.
The question still remains, however, does the fighter still get 4 chances to fail per round while the mages just role damage dice?

So I imagine this means you didn't find my answer very informative. As such I think I'll refrain from bothering with more explanation.
 

Mark Chance

Boingy! Boingy!
The question still remains, however, does the fighter still get 4 chances to fail per round while the mages just role damage dice?

Yes, for the same reason the fighter's target doesn't get saving throws against the large percentage of the fighter's attack rolls that hit.
 

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
So I imagine this means you didn't find my answer very informative. As such I think I'll refrain from bothering with more explanation.

Unfortunately I did not. Perhaps I worded my question poorly.

One of the design goals I found enjoyable regarding 4e was to handle the difference in 3.5 between a mage casting a spell and rolling dice for damage (for example, acid fog in the SRD) whilst a fighter has the potential to miss 1 or all of his attacks. For mages, this was instant hits. If I recall correctly, an experimental attempt to partially address this increasing chance of missing was implemented via Bo9S, giving a single attack, with increase damage depending on level if i recall correctly. In 4e, mages now have to make attack rolls for every offensive spell, and fighters kept that specific portion of the Bo9S mechanic so that they also have a single attack roll.

What I want to know is how the automatic hit of the mages was reconciled with the multiple chances for failures of classes with multiple attacks. If enemies now must make a saving throw against offensive magic, granting the possibility of a 'missed' or failed spell attempt for a mage, and/or reducing multiple fighter attacks to a single attack, then that is what I would like to know.

I have not read the alpha or beta rules, and would like to get an idea on the final rules from those that have before spending my money.
 

Twowolves

Explorer
I'm not sure what kind of major re-write to the 3.5 rules you were hoping for, nor is it very clear what the problem you are hoping to avoid might be, but this is my answer:

1) Fighters still roll to hit with attacks
2) Iterative attacks are still in
3) Spells only roll to hit with touch attacks (ranged or no)
4) Spells still have saves (now more than ever).

Addendum: There are feats that high level fighters qualify for that let them trade some iterative attacks for bonus damage on their primary attack, and there are feats that produce different effects on scoring a critical. But no, you don't roll to hit with a Magic Missile, nor do you get a save vs Longsword.
 

buzzard

First Post
Unfortunately I did not. Perhaps I worded my question poorly.

One of the design goals I found enjoyable regarding 4e was to handle the difference in 3.5 between a mage casting a spell and rolling dice for damage (for example, acid fog in the SRD) whilst a fighter has the potential to miss 1 or all of his attacks. For mages, this was instant hits. If I recall correctly, an experimental attempt to partially address this increasing chance of missing was implemented via Bo9S, giving a single attack, with increase damage depending on level if i recall correctly. In 4e, mages now have to make attack rolls for every offensive spell, and fighters kept that specific portion of the Bo9S mechanic so that they also have a single attack roll.

What I want to know is how the automatic hit of the mages was reconciled with the multiple chances for failures of classes with multiple attacks. If enemies now must make a saving throw against offensive magic, granting the possibility of a 'missed' or failed spell attempt for a mage, and/or reducing multiple fighter attacks to a single attack, then that is what I would like to know.

I have not read the alpha or beta rules, and would like to get an idea on the final rules from those that have before spending my money.

You cite a situation where the fighter is getting four attacks. That means high level. The amount of high level foes that don't have SR is limited in my experience (other than NPCs, and even they can get it). There's your roll to hit for the mage. This is, of course, coupled with a saving throw. Given that almost every spell is now damage with a save, or to hit for damage, that would also ameliorate your issue. There's almost nothing left of the save or die variety. There's still a bit of save or suck, but that's it and a lot of those allow continuous attempts to save.

Fighters got a rather nice feat chain called vital strike. This lets them do significantly higher damage at the expense of iterative attacks.

Here's the top end from the PRD:
Greater Vital Strike (Combat)

You can make a single attack that deals incredible damage.

Prerequisites: Improved Vital Strike, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +16.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).

There is also:

Deadly Stroke (Combat)

With a well-placed strike, you can bring a swift and painful end to most foes.

Prerequisites: Dazzling Display, Greater Weapon Focus, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.

Which follows on from another couple feats in the chain which render the target flat footed until the end of your next round.

So these feat chains, coupled with the extra +5 to hit you will be getting at the high end means a serious damage increase for the fighter. There are also feats which put riders on your crits, and allow you to really hash up spellcasters who are trying to cast defensively. Include in the lunge (which increases your reach), and Step Up(which allows you to take a 5' move with your enemy as an immediate action if he does one to step back) and melee people with the right stuff will be playing hell with casters who don't know to keep their distance. No more "I step back 5' and cast".

You can look over the rules yourself since they are available in the PRD
 

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