D&D 3E/3.5 A list of 3e problems and how they were tackled in PF

[Sadrik]

I know that Pathfinder is supposed to add to 3.5 and not reinvent it but they have said that they wanted to fix problem areas too. I know some of the answers to these but I thought it would be a good place for others to get their questions answered too. So answer the following, those who are knowledgeable in PF.

1. Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?
2. Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?
3. Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?
4. DCs for spells too high at upper levels?
5. High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?
6. Not enough skill points for characters?
7. Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?
8. The 15 minute work day?
9. Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?
10. Not enough feats for characters?
11. Characters too fragile at low level?
12. DM prep time?
13. Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?
14. Class glut?
15. Race glut?
16. Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?
17. Overall game complexity?
18. Complexity of Grappling?
19. Complexity of Turn Undead?
20. The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?

I am sure that there are more but lets start here and then any other 3e problems/concerns just tack them on and they'll get answered.

 

[pascale]

1. Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?

1. PrCs like theurge, and arcane trickster.

   [*]Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?

   They didn't. I still use fractual attacks and saves as house though.

   [*]Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?

   This is more of campaign/player/DM issue then a system. Though spells should be used as the rare powerful abilities that they are. If they just happen to fall off trees or whatever then they lose their shine and cuase problems. PF did however put the cookies where other classes can reach them now. Both bard and ranger have Save or dies.

   [*]DCs for spells too high at upper levels?

   I didn't know this was a problem.

   [*]High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?

   Again this is an issue? Whats the difference between I attack +4 and d6+2 damage and I attack +24 and 2d8 +48 damage?

   [*]Not enough skill points for characters?

   Characters generally gain more skill points now. Favoured class offers an extra point per level, and there are no more cross class skills so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Also a few skills got rolled in together. So perception now replaces spot and listen, diplomancy eat gather info, etc.

   [*]Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?

   there are no useless skills, just useless DMs/players. No in seriousness whether or not a skill useless/useful depends entirely on the campaign and the player. For instance you say forgery is useless, i view it as a must have for most to all of my rogue/bard characters.

   [*]The 15 minute work day?

   Abilities now have multiple uses and can be stretched out of the day. Its still and issue with spek\ll casters. But for the most part just use proper resource management and it shouldn't be an issue. For DMs they could put a time crunch on adventures. What I found successful was to just structure the adventure so that the players only had one combat encounter per day/week anyways. I also designed things so that non combat spells/abilities were very useful as well, that way my casters would need to split their spells between attack and everything else. This made it so that when they used their attack spells they would then try and solve the problem with the everything else spells.

   [*]Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?

   In the fighter case he has a something good every level now. I find for the most part that the classes have enough stuff that grows or is acquired through single classing that multiclassing is the must do it used to be. For example: 8 levels of barbarian gets you better rages, and fighters can look forward to higher armour and weapon bonuses now. Bard have amazing good performances.

   [*]Not enough feats for characters?

   A) Try and specialize a fighter (gets the most feats) in both TWF and archery and then say theres not enough feats. And B) the system is backwards compatible your saying witht he billizion and 2 feats in various splat book floating around there isn't enough?!?

   [*]Characters too fragile at low level?

   i still use the variant from the beta were they recieve max HD + con score at first level, seems to have cleared things up a bit. Also characters now go out at - con score, for some this makes them tougher... for others, not so much.

   [*]DM prep time?

   Huh, whats that? Its about the same as it always was... which is about the same as 4e, if you think about it. (Monster in PF have static XP now)

   [*]Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?

   For the most parts its pretty seemless. If something takes you more then 5 min to adapt your trying too hard. Just let it flow.

   [*]Class glut?

   Depends, core only theirs the original 12...splat books as many as you allow in.

   [*]Race glut?

   See above.

   [*]Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?

   Aren't present in core.

   [*]Overall game complexity?

   about the same is 3.x... thank goodness.

   [*]Complexity of Grappling?

   replaced with CMD/CMB

   [*]Complexity of Turn Undead?

   Channel energy - cleric rolls damage undead rolls save, easy, no?

   [*]The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?

   Monster use statci XP and have guide lines for level. Just use appropriate XP values for party level.

 

[kitsune9]

I know that Pathfinder is supposed to add to 3.5 and not reinvent it but they have said that they wanted to fix problem areas too. I know some of the answers to these but I thought it would be a good place for others to get their questions answered too. So answer the following, those who are knowledgeable in PF.

1. Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?
2. Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?
3. Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?
4. DCs for spells too high at upper levels?
5. High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?
6. Not enough skill points for characters?
7. Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?
8. The 15 minute work day?
9. Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?
10. Not enough feats for characters?
11. Characters too fragile at low level?
12. DM prep time?
13. Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?
14. Class glut?
15. Race glut?
16. Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?
17. Overall game complexity?
18. Complexity of Grappling?
19. Complexity of Turn Undead?
20. The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?

I am sure that there are more but lets start here and then any other 3e problems/concerns just tack them on and they'll get answered.

I'll have to keep reading to see if Pathfinder fixed the problems you've listed up. I'm still reading; however I think we'll be a bunch of cats in that some of us will think that Problem X has been addressed, but not fixed, others will say Problem X was fixed, and even others will say Problem X wasn't even a problem.

Happy Gaming!

 

[Gorbacz]

I know that Pathfinder is supposed to add to 3.5 and not reinvent it but they have said that they wanted to fix problem areas too. I know some of the answers to these but I thought it would be a good place for others to get their questions answered too. So answer the following, those who are knowledgeable in PF.

1. Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?
2. Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?
3. Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?
4. DCs for spells too high at upper levels?
5. High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?
6. Not enough skill points for characters?
7. Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?
8. The 15 minute work day?
9. Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?
10. Not enough feats for characters?
11. Characters too fragile at low level?
12. DM prep time?
13. Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?
14. Class glut?
15. Race glut?
16. Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?
17. Overall game complexity?
18. Complexity of Grappling?
19. Complexity of Turn Undead?
20. The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?

I am sure that there are more but lets start here and then any other 3e problems/concerns just tack them on and they'll get answered.

1. Same as in 3.5
2. Mostly same, but PrCs have different save progressions in PF
3. Many SoD spells were changed to damage and SoS spells to allow extra saves
4. Depends how much DC-empowering splat you allow...
5. Same as in 3.5, mostly
6. The number of skills is reduced = more skill points. Less skill tax as well.
7. Both Use Rope and Forgery are gone.
8. Que pasa ?
9. Fighters get more cool stuff at higher level.
10. Feats every 2nd level = more feats.
11. More feats + favoured class changes = more survivalabilty
12. More or less the same, less work with monsters/NPC.
13. Mostly seamless.
14. None as of yet.
15. None as of yet.
16. LAs are gone.
17. A notch less than 3.5
18. Fixed, all maneuvres (grapple, bull rush, trip...) follow the same base mechanic.
19. Fixed, turn undead changed into positive/negative energy burst.
20. Fixed, flat XP for encounters.

 

[coyote6]

[regarding GM prep time]
12. More or less the same, less work with monsters/NPC.

How are NPCs faster for GMs to prepare? (In particular, I'm asking about high-level NPCs.)

 

[an_idol_mind]

How are NPCs faster for GMs to prepare? (In particular, I'm asking about high-level NPCs.)

Some useful tables designed to come up with quick ability scores and skill assignments, a list of sample feat packages based on character type, and a breakdown of magical treasure purchases into categories of weapons, protection, magic, limited use, and gear help speed things up and clarify them a bit. A few other suggestions, such as focusing on the top two spell levels for spellcasters while leaving lower spell levels as multiple preparations of only a couple of spells, makes for some useful advice.

 

[Doodles]

Keep in mind that Pathfinder is intended for people who like 3.5, not people who want to move away from it.

 

[Seonaid]

8. Que pasa ?

I think the OP is talking about the whole "use up all the healing/cool abilities in one encounter and then having to rest for an entire 8 hours" phenomenon. Which is highly irritating, IMO and IME.

 

[Twowolves]

1. Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?
2. Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?
3. Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?
4. DCs for spells too high at upper levels?
5. High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?
6. Not enough skill points for characters?
7. Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?
8. The 15 minute work day?
9. Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?
10. Not enough feats for characters?
11. Characters too fragile at low level?
12. DM prep time?
13. Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?
14. Class glut?
15. Race glut?
16. Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?
17. Overall game complexity?
18. Complexity of Grappling?
19. Complexity of Turn Undead?
20. The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?

I am sure that there are more but lets start here and then any other 3e problems/concerns just tack them on and they'll get answered.

I haven't read the book cover to cover, but I did play in 4 Pathfinder Society sessions and have been following the development pretty closely, so I'll give it a shot.

1. The only answer I have here is Mystic Theurge. That PrC has class-specific solutions for the problem, so there is no system-wide fix. But Practiced Spellcaster being 3.5 doesn't mean it's unusable with PRPG.

2. I don't understand what the problem is here, are they too high or too low, and if you can't tell which, where's the problem? Answer = no change.

3. SoD spells were individually addressed to change Death to Damage, Suckatude to round-by-round saves to avoid said suckatude.

4. Were they too high? How high is "too high"? No change of which I am aware.

5. New feats let you trade your lowest bonus attack for more damage on your main attack, effectively encouraging high-level (more iterative attacking) characters to forego those extra, superfluous attacks for more damage.

6. Skill points stay the same, but many skills have been consolidated, effectively increasing what you can do with your skill points (stretching your skill point value).

7. Most of the "useless" skills were folded into other uses for existing skills. Forgery is a part of the "Linguistics" skill (folded into "speak language").

8. Many arcane types get a ranged attack that can be used X/day, in addition to spells. Clerical "Turn Undead" becomes "Channel Energy" which can be used for healing (for Positive Energy casters). More healing, more offensive casting, longer "workday". However, there is nothing specificially preventing a party from blowing it's wad in the first encounter if they choose.

9. No class is so front-end loaded that it becomes ripe for cherry-picking, yet still an attractive multi-class choice.

10. All classes get feats every other level instead of every 3 levels, and the list of core feats is greatly expanded.

11. Characters still get max hp at first level (+ con bonus), and now you can choose to gain +1hp for each level you take in your "favored class" (vs +1 skill point). And the Toughness feat gives you +1hp/HD, minimum of +3, so that helps. Also, death is at -Con score, not -10, so that should help literal lethality.

12. No clue about DM prep time, other than the fact that the changes to how skill points are spent should wipe away a huge potential time sink. There are "improved" sections on NPCs in the book, but I have not read them so I can't comment.

13. It depends on how stringent you are as a DM with your "conversions". Almost everything can be used as-is with the addition of a Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense penciled in next to the existing stat block. Not everything will be perfect that way, but certainly usable for monster/NPC foes. But with just the addition of CMB/CMD you can use an adventure straight (as was done for the Pathfinder Society games run with the PRPG PHB at the con).

14. There is no more "class glut" in the PRPG PHB than there was in the 3.X PHB.

15. Same as 14 above. They have expressed their wariness at adding to "crunch bloat", so take that for what it's worth.

16. No information until the Bestiary comes out next month, but rumor has it only "humanoid-ish" monsters can be PCs, expressly to cut out most of the LA problems.

17. Game complexity is slightly less. CMB/CMD greatly simplifies much of combat, but more player options for classes and feats might offset that.

18. MUCH simpler. CMB/CMD again.

19. Turn undead is a feat. Base ability is a 30' radius burst effect, healing 1d6/odd level, or harming undead for the same (save for 1/2). Negative channelers reverse that (heal undead or harm living). Feats also expand this to outsiders/elementals.

20. There are 3 xp tracks (fast/slow/average) and it seems XP awards are static for each monster (monster stat blocks have an XP award entry, like 2nd ed). I have not read the CR rules, but in beta they seemed improved (can't say why, just my impression upon reading it last year).

Hope that helps...

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Keep in mind that Pathfinder is intended for people who like 3.5, not people who want to move away from it.

I think it's for both; I have a lot of nit-picks about 3.X and Pathfinder clears them up, sometimes rather impressively. And I also like 4E (plan to start a Pathfinder game side by side with my 4E games, actually).

Oddly, most of the really dedicated 3.5ers I know are poo-pooing Pathfinder. Which only makes me love it more for some reason!

Now, on to that list:
Multi-classed spell casters not powerful enough?
I think Pathfinder goes more towards encouraging prestige classes and single classing, myself, so this problem "might not" have gone away.

Multi-classes BAB and Saves either too high or too low?
Not much change here, although I hadn't noticed this issue myself.

Save or Die/Suck spells dominating high level play?
I don't play high level often enough....it seemed like in my 3.X days these spells were easily defeated by enormously good saves that everyone had.

DCs for spells too high at upper levels?
Definitely never noticed this problem before....I thought DCs were too low usually.

High level full attacks and actually game time to resolve them?
Probably still there, although many feats have been cleaned up and refined (power gamers I know are outraged) which I think will help with rolling four attacks in a row. But it's probably not any slower than 3rd or 4th edition's combat attacks.

Not enough skill points for characters?
Oh that's definitely fixed. I love the new skill system mechanics. Both new and retro-compatible all in one package.

Skills that are useless (rope use/forgery)?
That's a DM problem, I suspect....he's not looking for ways to make you guys wish you HAD taken roe use/forgery!

The 15 minute work day?
There are some bits that imrprove on this. I like how 0 level spells are now at will effects, for example; being able to use disrupt undead, for example, as an at-will is pretty handy! The availability of healing magic is a little more flexible for clerics and paladins now, too, which should also help with the so-called 15-minute work day. Of course, one could readily argue that this problem isn't a "game mechanic" issue so much as a "DM who throws the kitchen sink at the PCs in every encounter issue."

Reasons to not multi-class in certain classes (fighter)?
More like "each class offers a lot of reasons to stay with it and not multi-class, period." But fighters are the Lords of Feats now, that alone might be tempting.

Not enough feats for characters?
Fixed (I didn't think that was a problem, but it's definitely fixed in PF).

Characters too fragile at low level?
A couple adjustments help, but overall DMs still need to respect that low level characters are weak and design accordingly.

DM prep time?
They add some useful tools and methods of reducing prep time. This was my #1 MAJOR PEEVE about 3.X that to do it right required about 45 minutes of prep time for every hour of play...at least, that's how it felt to me. I think PF does a pretty good job of helping the DM, not as much as 4E, which reduces it to something like 1 hour of prep time for 5-10 hours of play, but it definitely halves 3.X prep time, I'd say.

Adaptation of previous edition's modules and supplements?
Doing it right now. Piece of cake.

Class glut?
Nope. Give it time.

Race glut?
Ditto

Racial Level Adjustments (LA)?
Appear to be gone for now

Overall game complexity?
About the same, slightly easier with things like CMB and CMD rules.

Complexity of Grappling?
I LOVE PF grappling! It's perfect now. I'm going to houserule PF grappling in to my 4E games, too.

Complexity of Turn Undead?
Um...this was complex before?

The complexity of the CR/EL XP system?
I like what PF did here, too; it's more intuitive and similar to 4E now.