D&D 3E/3.5 A list of 3e problems and how they were tackled in PF

[Twowolves]

Sorry, guys, I just don't see this conspiracy angle. How CMB/CMD work is in the SRD, those values incorporate more modifiers than 3.5, and thus CMD is going to increase significantly faster than CMB as levels go up. A number of the pregenerated Pathfinder characters had a much more difficult time grappling someone with identical stats to themselves than a 3.5 character would. The math seems to work out that way.

They streamlined the mechanic for all maneuvers, and defaulted to the defensive position as being better. For a good reason. If it were equal, then special maneuvers would dominate combat. If you leave in feats to specialize in certain maneuvers, then the math would swing to the attacker and the spiked chain-trip monkey would STILL be an overpowered choice. The rationale for CMD outpacing CMB is obvious.

Or if the answer is "Who really cares about grapple anyway, why would you play a melee class in the first place", hey, that's cool too, but adding CMB/CMD requires fiddling with numbers for every monster out there, only a little number-crunching, but it's a stat that wasn't there before. So I'd hope for that work you'd at least get the advertised results.

Since they are about to release an entire book of SRD monsters retooled for their system, it's hardly fair to complain about this. In any case, the math is quick and simple, and you don't have to restat every monster, just the one the party is facing right now, and even then only if someone wants to try a combat maneuver. You can figure the CMD in about 3 seconds by glancing at the statblock. It's almost like critics want to slam PRPG because "there's not even a DM's screen for this game, how am I supposed to flip through the huge rulebook to find every little rule I need!!!"

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The most egregious examples of grapple being over the top was when employed by big monsters....

This is a bad thing?

 

[Sammael]

IMO, each class (or type of class) should have one way to escape a grapple. Casters should be able to teleport away/entice the monster to let them go; rogue types should be able to wriggle free; fighter types should be able to break free.

Core 3.5 didn't provide enough options for this to work. Does Pathfinder?

 

[Shazman]

In the most extreme examples, a character could not get out of a grapple with a big monster, even if he rolled a 20, and the monster rolled a 1. It should be difficult to escape, but not impossible. All you can do is hope someone can kill the beast before it kills you, or maybe you are lucky enough to have someone be able to have freedom of movement prepared, and can get close eonugh to you to cast it. If not, you are dead. So it was an autowin button for many monsters. It did need to be scaled back, and I'm glad Paizo did it.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In the most extreme examples, a character could not get out of a grapple with a big monster, even if he rolled a 20, and the monster rolled a 1.

Extreme examples... Go on...

It should be difficult to escape, but not impossible. All you can do is hope someone can kill the beast before it kills you,

Ya think?

So it was an autowin button for many monsters. It did need to be scaled back, and I'm glad Paizo did it.

It wasn't an "autowin button" by anything but the loosest definition. It's highly conditional, not the least of which is the predication that your friends won't help you.

Plenty of things that are stone cold deadly if you don't have friends to pull your fat out of the fire.

The lowly sleep spell is far more dangerous to the typical PC at the level it is encountered. Resilient sphere. Plane shift. Ghoul paralysis.

All of these are asymmetric abilities that allow a creature to function above the threat threshold of "hit points."

Being able to take a PC out of the fight with a grapple is an asymmetric ability that is pretty much essential for creatures whose CR is attributable primarily to their size and hit points. It is the big dumb critter version of "crowd control."

 

[nightwyrm]

The only save or suck spells (without repeat saves,) left are fort saves, so your melee people will be strong against that. From my initial purview the only save or suck spells left of this type are flesh to stone and baleful polymorph.

I still see color spray, ray of enfeeblement, dominate person, solid fog, stinking cloud, slow, sleet storm, enervation, wave of fatigue/exhaustion, confusion, forcecage (though the target's been granted a ref save) etc.

Save or suck isn't limited to glitterdust and web, you know, though those two are probably overpowered for their level as they were originally written. Some of the best suck spells doesn't even require a save.

 

[Twowolves]

I still see color spray, ray of enfeeblement, dominate person, solid fog, stinking cloud, slow, sleet storm, enervation, wave of fatigue/exhaustion, confusion, forcecage (though the target's been granted a ref save) etc.

Of these, I know Ray of Enfeeblement was toned down, because it ignited a big crap-storm on the Paizo boards, and I'm pretty sure some others got save/round mechanics too. Not sure about the others off the top of my head. But really, any change you make that favors one group will massively piss off another, so *shrug*

 

[Shazman]

Extreme examples... Go on...



Ya think?



It wasn't an "autowin button" by anything but the loosest definition. It's highly conditional, not the least of which is the predication that your friends won't help you.

Plenty of things that are stone cold deadly if you don't have friends to pull your fat out of the fire.

The lowly sleep spell is far more dangerous to the typical PC at the level it is encountered. Resilient sphere. Plane shift. Ghoul paralysis.

All of these are asymmetric abilities that allow a creature to function above the threat threshold of "hit points."

Being able to take a PC out of the fight with a grapple is an asymmetric ability that is pretty much essential for creatures whose CR is attributable primarily to their size and hit points. It is the big dumb critter version of "crowd control."

What about when you have groups of these creatures? If every party member is engaged with creatures with an autowin button, it isn't very fun for the players and isn't good for the game. These creatures usually don't have a CR that adequately reflects their ability to take out party members at will, which is why you can fight 4 of them and have the encounter still fit within the EL guidlelines. Take a look at Paizo's own Spire of Long Shadows from Age of Worms as an example. In Pathfinder, they can still grapple pretty good, but it's not an "I grapple. I win" situation anymore. It brings some sanity back into encounters with very large grappling creatures, which is a very good thing.

 

[nightwyrm]

Of these, I know Ray of Enfeeblement was toned down, because it ignited a big crap-storm on the Paizo boards, and I'm pretty sure some others got save/round mechanics too. Not sure about the others off the top of my head. But really, any change you make that favors one group will massively piss off another, so *shrug*

I'm looking at the PF SRD and comparing it to the 3.5 SRD right now, you're right that RoE was changed from 1 min/lv to 1 round/lv but I don't think any of the others I pointed out grants a save per round that wasn't already in the original spell.

 

[ST]

Someone a few pages back mentions "grapple is very difficult now", and the responses range from "No it isn't, that's just anti-PF bashing" to "Of course it is, because it should be". The question was "did they do what they claimed they were planning to do?" When even supporters who've read the book are of two minds over what the rules actually do, it's hard to see that they succeeded.

It's cool. I can tell when people are in "circle the wagons" mode. It feels to me like it's another case where Pathfinder takes an issue they said they'd address, and it's chalked up as a success because there is, in fact, a big block o' rules changes.

Could be it's just me -- the old 3.x approach of a big chunk of rules without design explanation just leaves me cold. Or maybe there's more explanation of what they were thinking in the book as opposed to the SRD.