D&D 4E 4E had better have fewer skills & feats

[johnsemlak]

There does need to be a way to limit cleric spells, perhaps adding in 'opposed schools'?

my suggestion would be to limit a PC to free access to PHB (or their domain) spells only, other spells need to be learned somehow before they can me prayed for and cast.

 

[Crothian]

Some skill are going to be rather specialized and only those people who really need it will ever use it.

That's all skills. My dwarf has no need for move silently or hide, but that doesn't mean that they need to be gotten rid of. THere is no single skill that is usefull for all characters. That's why there are more skills then skill points for characters, you choose what skills you want. So, while some characters have no need for use rope and forgery, others do. And the skills are there to cover all charactersm not just adventuring characters. If we limit the skills we limit that flexibility of the game.

 

[jmucchiello]

Appraise --> approriate Lore skill (below)
Balance, Tumble --> Acrobatics
Bluff, Intimidate, Disguise, Forgery -> Persuade
Climb, Jump, Swim --> Athletics
Concentration -- eliminate; use a different mechanic for this
Decipher Script --> approriate Lore skill (below)
Diplomacy, Gather Information --> Diplomacy
Disable Device, Open Lock --> Disable Device
Escape Artist, Use Rope, Slight of Hand --> Slight of Hand
Handle Animal, Ride --> Handle Animal
Hide, Move Silently --> Sneak
Knowledge (arcana), Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Knowlege (psionics), Knowledge (the planes), Psicraft --> Arcane Lore
Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Survival --> Wilderness Lore
Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion) --> Cultural Lore
Listen, Spot, Sense Motive --> Awareness

This is one of the best lists of shrunken skill sets I've seen done. Well done. But.... (expecting this right?)

I'd lump Use Magic Device, Disable Device and Open Lock into a skill called Use Device. Create a feat/rogue ability that allows Use Device to be used for hacking magic items in the same manner that the Track feat extends the Survival skill. I don't like the idea of rogues knowing arcana/spellcraft as the basis for them hacking magic items.

Now you just need something for Craft/Profession/Perform and you seem to have lost Search.

 

[jmucchiello]

That's all skills. My dwarf has no need for move silently or hide, but that doesn't mean that they need to be gotten rid of. THere is no single skill that is usefull for all characters. That's why there are more skills then skill points for characters, you choose what skills you want. So, while some characters have no need for use rope and forgery, others do. And the skills are there to cover all charactersm not just adventuring characters. If we limit the skills we limit that flexibility of the game.

Cro, the complaint is that some skills are very narrow while others are very broad. Thus each skill point you spend is more or less useful depending on the skill you put it in. By folding the existing skills into a smaller set of skill, we make it more likely that each skill point spent sees use more often.

No one is saying it's impossible to work the skills into a game session. Just that if the skills were equally broad, it becomes easier to work each one into a session.

 

[drothgery]

This is one of the best lists of shrunken skill sets I've seen done. Well done. But.... (expecting this right?)

I'd lump Use Magic Device, Disable Device and Open Lock into a skill called Use Device. Create a feat/rogue ability that allows Use Device to be used for hacking magic items in the same manner that the Track feat extends the Survival skill. I don't like the idea of rogues knowing arcana/spellcraft as the basis for them hacking magic items.

Actually, let's just make Use Magic/Psionic Device a class ability for Rogues (and Eberron Artificers), along the lines of Wild Empathy.

Now you just need something for Craft/Profession/Perform and you seem to have lost Search.

Hmm... make Perform a Bard class ability. Use the d20 Modern version of Profession (one skill, reflects your ability to make money). That leaves Craft.

I guess you drop Search into Awareness, but I don't really like turning it from an Int-based skill into a Wis-based skill.

 

[Crothian]

Cro, the complaint is that some skills are very narrow while others are very broad. Thus each skill point you spend is more or less useful depending on the skill you put it in. By folding the existing skills into a smaller set of skill, we make it more likely that each skill point spent sees use more often.

No one is saying it's impossible to work the skills into a game session. Just that if the skills were equally broad, it becomes easier to work each one into a session.

And I think the narrow or the broad uses of skills is not withing the definition but the people using the skills. Even if all the skills are equal broad, it still wouldn't matter if people aren't making them useful in their games. Use rope has lots of uses, but for some reason people just don't want to make use of the skill so they call it limited.

 

[A'koss]

This is close to what Castles & Crusades has done. I don't think it's going to happen with D&D. D&D has taken the approach that the more options there are, the better, and the resulting rules complexity is an inherent and acceptable downside to the benefits of customization.

Yeah, I'm aware of C&C's way of handling skills - it's not bad but I think somewhere between the two extremes might be best. I'd certainly like to have a closer look at Blue Rose from the sound of it.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

That's all skills. My dwarf has no need for move silently or hide, but that doesn't mean that they need to be gotten rid of. THere is no single skill that is usefull for all characters.

Spot. It the one skill I see nearly every PC take even if it is cross class.

That's why there are more skills then skill points for characters, you choose what skills you want. So, while some characters have no need for use rope and forgery, others do. And the skills are there to cover all charactersm not just adventuring characters. If we limit the skills we limit that flexibility of the game.

Hogwash. I'm not trying to limit the flexibility of the game but just seeing that if someone if really good at disabling devices or mountain climbing then that person will naturally be really good with locking mechanisms or using rope (show me one mountain climber who doesn't use rope?!). I like PCs having lots of skills and to not be afraid to burn a few skill points on cross class skills. Narrowing the list (to the limited extent I have done - I'm no where near the level drothgery has done) and bumoing up the points is a nice simple way to get the players to expand their characters a bit and take skils they might not ever get (like the Sneaking wizard with a +12 to sneak now! Could never have gotten that with that skill split as Hide/Move Silently)

 

[MerricB]

Hogwash. I'm not trying to limit the flexibility of the game but just seeing that if someone if really good at disabling devices or mountain climbing then that person will naturally be really good with locking mechanisms or using rope (show me one mountain climber who doesn't use rope?!).

If you have someone who can climb* mountains but doesn't know how to use rope, then you have a character who hasn't been created properly. It's like making a wizard with an 8 intelligence - you can do it, but it's dumb.

(*I wouldn't want to climb a mountain without having the Use Rope skill. In the D&D game, you'd have a good ability to climb unaided, but your ability to climb mountains would be severely reduced because you don't have the right combinations of skills.)

Quite frankly, in the Real World(tm), all skills do not have the same usefulness. The point is to have a number of skills that cover related areas, without reducing the skills to a point where there is no variation in characters.

Consider this: can you climb without a rope? Yes - but there will be things that you can't climb. Thus, the two skills are separate.

Is Use Rope an important enough skill to keep separate from another? Is there another skill with which it makes a good fit? And indeed, do you need the Use Rope skill at all? (To tie a firm knot is a DC 10 check...)

3.5e did a good job of getting rid of overly specialised skills (e.g. Scry, Intuit Direction). It also improved the lot of other skills (e.g. Knowledge). Use Rope is probably the only skill that could easily be lost from the remaining list - though it doesn't really fit under Climb or Survival!

Cheers!

 

[Darmanicus]

If you have someone who can climb* mountains but doesn't know how to use rope, then you have a character who hasn't been created properly. It's like making a wizard with an 8 intelligence - you can do it, but it's dumb.

It's nothing like making a wizard with 8 Int, that dude can't cast however the character who doesn't know how to use rope can still climb mountains.

Anyway all this talk of 4E is getting to me. I don't know, 3.5 is still just a baby but already the whiners have come out of hiding.

'It takes me forever to sort out my skill points', like what level are you starting at.......50th?

'There's too many skills', ok I agree with you on this, they should all be condensed into one called, funnily enough, skill.......oh yeah!

'There's too many feats', you're given an awesome array of abilities to make your character unique and you're complaining? Now I've heard it all!

So why don't we all just enjoy 3/3.5E whilst it lasts, there's plenty of time to slag it off when it's eventually made obsolete and we don't need to expediate that process.