D&D 4E 4E had better have fewer skills & feats

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

One thing to remember is that if you're going to consolidate a large amount of skills you need to decrease the amount of skill points each class gives...or completely rework the max levels mechanic.

 

[Sir Elton]

What are all of you trying to do? Turn D&D into Rolemaster the Standard System/Fantasy Roleplaying?

 

[Crothian]

What are all of you trying to do? Turn D&D into Rolemaster the Standard System/Fantasy Roleplaying?

WEll, that is the secret agenda yes. Actually we are trying to get it to be e amix of role master/Hero/Gurps with the old vampire clans of V:tM and bring in the good points of 5th edition Paranioa.

 

[fuindordm]

The world just doesn't work like this. There are long-distance jumpers who don't know how to swim. There are people with no legs that can still swim, but they certainly can't jump. Furthermore, beings with special feet or some like apparatus would receive a bonus to climbing. If it has to be specified that things like this give a bonus or penalty on athletic rolls to climb, athletic rolls to jump, and/or athletic rolls to swim, they should simply be different skills. Consider background - a person living in a desert society that builds their homes in excavations in the sides of a mesa would naturally have climbing ability, but not swimming. We'd have to rule that they have athletics for the purposes of climbing only, effectively creating one skill-category with different sub-skills. Why not just leave it as one skill?

(In reference to consolidating Jump, Swim, Climb into Athletics)

All you say is true. No matter what skill (or for that matter, ability score) you examine in D&D you can make simiar arguments--there are people highly resistant to disease but not injury; there are people that are terribly dextrous with their hands but not with their legs... there are people who have studied underground monsters extensively but not underground natural hazards. Any game system is at best a coarse model of reality.

For this skill in particular, however, one could make the argument that someone who is naturally athletic, plays a lot of sports, etc. would do better at jumping even if they've done mostly climbing, and someone in good athletic shape could probably stay afloat better than someone with no appreciable skill in any of the three categories.

More often than not, a player conceptualizes their character as "someone athletic" rather than as "a strong swimmer, but not so hot climber". It makes sense then to allow them a skill where all three modes are part of a package deal, especially when skill points are a scarce commodity.

The other side of the question, then, is how to repackage the other skills so that they have roughly equal utility. Here's the system I came up with an another thread (and I've seen about half a dozen of these come and go...)

I'd appreciate further comments on this system.
Ben
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A PC gets 1+Int bonus languages and 1+Int bonus free Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills in addition to their class skills. Unlike class skills, these three skills do not get a +3 bonus; their rank is simply the PC's character level. These skills are important, however, because they can add a +2 synergy bonus to the player's skill rolls whenever they're doing something closely related to their background as defined by these skills.

A PC also gets from 2 to 6 "adventuring skills" chosen from the following list, according to their class. A PC may choose any skill from the list, but if they choose one of the skills favored by their class they get a +3 bonus to that skill.

Fighters, Clerics, and Wizards get 2 skills.
Barbarians, Druids, Monks, Paladins, and Sorcerers get 3 skills.
Rangers and Bards get 4 skills.
Rogues get 6 skills.

Humans get an additional skill. Anyone may choose an additional skill from the list by expending a feat.

All skills are treated as if you have ranks equal to your level.

ADVENTURING SKILLS:

If a PC has levels in any class listed after an adventuring skill, they get a one-time +3 bonus to that skill.

Each skill can be broken down further into a number of tasks, listed after the skill description in bullet points. The appearance of a profession skill among the tasks indicates that the character can use this skill to make money at the indicated profession.

Acrobatics (DEX) [Bard, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue]
* Balance
* Escape Artist
* Tumble
* Profession (acrobat)

Acting (CHA) [Bard, Rogue]
Use this skill to lie well and to pretend you are someone you're not.
* Bluff
* Disguise
* Profession (actor)

Artifice (CHA) [Sorcerers]
Use this skill to guess at the powers of a magic item and make it
work for you without the necessary training or attributes.
* Identify potions and other magic devices
* Use Magic Device

Athletics (STR) [Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue]
* Climb
* Jump
* Swim

Awareness (WIS) [Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue]
* Listen
* Spot
* Search

Healing (WIS) [Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger]

Influence (CHA) [Bard, Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer]
Use this skill to convince another person or creature to a course of
action or see you in a more favorable light.
* Diplomacy
* Intimidate

Intuition (WIS) [Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue]
Use this skill to sense another creature's mood and deal with them appropriately. This skill also gives a small chance of sensing magic, unnatural presences, and other such phenomena at the DM's discretion. Intuition skill rolls can also aid the use of many divination spells.
* Sense Motive
* Sense Unseen

Mechanics (DEX) [Rogues]
Use this skill to infiltrate forbidden areas and come back out alive.
* Pick locks, given reasonable tools.
* Find and disable mundane traps and other mechanical devices
* Find and open secret doors and compartments.

Mystic (INT) [Bard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard]
* Identify spells and magical effects
* Concentration
* Used in some advanced spells such as Scry and Teleport
* Knowledge (arcana)
* Profession (fortune-teller)

Riding (CHA) [Bard, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger]
* Handle Animal
* Ride

Scribe (INT) [Bard, Rogue, Wizard]
Characters without this skill can read and write, but those with it can make a living at it. You spend much of your time reading and are familiar with numerous writing styles and tricks of language.
* Create and decipher coded messages
* Make sense of old languages or scripts, provided they are related
to a language you already know.
* Forge documents and signatures
* Profession (clerk)

Stealth (DEX) [Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue]
* Hide, given concealment
* Move silently
* Follow someone without being noticed

Streetwise (CHA) [Bard and Rogue]
Use this skill to learn the important people and places in a new town quickly, find specific information in an urban setting, uncover or join conspiracies, and deal in black-market goods.
* Gather information
* Allows untrained use of Knowledge: Local after a short period
* Access to and influence on covert societies and the black market

Survival (WIS) [Barbarians, Druids, Rangers, Rogues]
Use this skill to subsist and navigate in the wilderness, as well as to recognize and use local flora and fauna.
* Survival
* Intuit Direction
* Knowledge (nature)

Sleight of Hand (DEX) [Bards, Rogues]
Use this skill to conceal small items on your person and to steal small items from other people, even in plain sight. This skill can be used for entertainment, for cheating at cards and dice, or for swapping a replica for a real item without anyone noticing..
* Profession (stage magic)

Trader (INT) [Bards, Rogues]
Use this skill to haggle over prices and appraise goods and treasures.
* Appraise
* Knowledge (geography)
* Profession (merchant)

SPECIAL SKILLS

There are four special skills that follow slightly different rules: Craft, Knowledge, Linguist, and Profession.

Craft, Knowledge, and Profession must be associated with a reasonably specific category, but may be taken multiple times. These three skills, and only these three skills, can grant a +2 synergy bonus to appropriate applications of the adventuring skills. This encourages PCs to put some thought into their character's background and choose appropriate skills. For example, a PC with Craft: Locksmith gets +2 to their Mechanics roll when trying to open locks.

CRAFT SKILLS (INT): The principle benefit of a Craft skill is the ability to create and repair things, but some craft skills grant clear synergy bonuses. All craft skills grant the ability to appraise items that the character could create, the ability to repair items given proper tools and materials, and can generally be expected to give a bonus to Awareness rolls when there is something unusual to be noticed about such items.

Craft (Alchemy): grants a +2 bonus to Mystic to identify potions
Craft (Clockwork): grants a +2 bonus to Mechanics to disable many traps.
Craft (Engineering): grants a +2 bonus to Awareness when searching for secret doors.
Craft (Herbalism): grants a +2 bonus to Healing in appropriate terrain.
Craft (Locksmith): grants a +2 bonus to Mechanics when trying to pick locks.
Craft (Shipwright): no synergy bonuses to speak of, but sometimes indispensable!
Craft (Smithing): grants a +2 bonus to Artifice when used on armor and weapons.

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS (INT): These skills simply provide the PC with plenty of facts, rumors, and legends in a fairly broad subject. A character with only knowledge skills can't be expected to do much with it, however, since this skill represents only the kind of learning you can get by reading books. Some knowledge skills can allow the characters to recognize and know the abilities of certain kinds of creatures.

Some adventuring skills subsume a category of knowledge as well; if a character has both (for example, Survival and Knowledge: Nature), then the +2 synergy bonus applies to all applications of the adventuring skill.

Knowledge (Arcana): Magical creatures, runes and symbols, elementals, arcane materials.

Knowledge (Geography): Geographical features, borders, imports and exports, landmarks, mysterious and legendary places, common surface animals and monsters. +2 to Survival rolls when navigating the wilderness.

Knowledge (History) [bard, wizard]: Age of legends, rise of nations, noble houses, current affairs.

Knowledge (Local) [bard, cleric, rogue, wizard]: Replace 'local' with the name of a country or large city. It becomes a mishmash of Geography and History for that region.

Knowledge (Nature) [bard, druid, ranger, wizard]: Natural hazards; flora and fauna, their behavior and uses.

Knowledge (Religion) [bard, cleric, paladin, wizard]: Mythology, doctrine, iconography, cosmology, and anathema such as demons and undead.

Knowledge (Science): Mathematics, ballistics, basic engineering principles, strange but natural phenomena.

PROFESSION SKILLS (WIS)

Profession allow the character to act with reasonable competence in a given profession, so that they can earn money. When acting in the context of a profession, these skills allow a character to use certain adventuring and knowledge skills as if they had (level/2) ranks, even if they didn't take those skills. If the character has the appropriate skill as well, then a profession applies a +2 synergy bonus to that skill instead.

Profession (Beggar): Acting, Influence, Streetwise (simulating poverty and injury, obtaining charity)
Profession (Courtier): Acting, Influence, Knowledge (History) (simulating wealth, currying favor)
Profession (Farmer): Craft, Survival, Trader (finding food in home terrain, haggling for common items)
Profession (Fence): Artifice, Sleight of Hand, Trader (recognizing magic items, concealing and
swapping items, haggling for stolen goods)
Profession (Guardsman): Awareness, Intuition (when standing sentry duty)
Profession (Miner): Athletics, Craft, Survival (climbing natural formations and shafts, natural hazards)
Profession (Sailor): Athletics, Craft, Survival (swimming, tools and ropes, fishing, navigation at sea)

SKILL-RELATED FEATS

Animal Empathy: This feat can only be taken if you have the Intuition and Survival skills. You can use Influence on animals as well as people.

Arcane Trapfinding: This feat can only be taken if you have the Artifice and Scribe skills. It allows you to use Awareness to detect the presence of magical traps, but you must be actively searching for them. You can also use Scribe to try to discharge some such traps harmlessly.

Duelist: Allows the character to feint in combat as if they had the Acting skill at full ranks.

Extra Training: pick one additional skill.

Skill Focus: gives a +2 bonus to one skill (only once per skill)

Skill Specialization: This feat grants a +4 bonus to one specialized application of an adventuring skill. Examples include stabilizing (Heal), swimming (Athletics), avoiding attacks of opportunity in combat (Acrobatics), feinting in combat (Acting), spell research (Mystic), sensing the unseen (Intuition), listening (Awareness), and so on. The player should feel free to give this feat a more flavorful name reflecting the bonus.

Tracking: This feat requires the Awareness and Survival skills. You can use Survival to follow another creature's traces.

Example: Kugel the rogue grew up on the streets of Baghdad, running small errands and messages for figures of the underworld when he wasn't begging. His only friend and mentor was a hedge wizard who discovered him spying on his activities and took a liking to the boy. Now, at the tender age of 15, he sees his golden opportunity and joins up with an adventuring party.

Kugel's stats are: Str 8 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 13. He's a human rogue, so he gets seven skills
and two feats; he also gets 2 languages and two background skills.

For skills, he chooses: Acrobatics, Acting, Awareness, Mysitc, Stealth, Streetwise, and Sleight of Hand.
For feats, he chooses Improved Initiative and Skill Specialization (Acrobatics: tumbling to avoid attacks of
opportunity).
For background skills, he chooses Profession (beggar) and Knowledge (Baghdad)

His character sheet looks like this:
Acrobatics +6 (level + 3 + Dex) (+10 tumble vs. AoO)
Acting +5 (level + 3 + Cha)
Awareness +6 (level + 3 + Wis)
Mystic +2 (level + Int) (Mystic is not a class skill, so he doesn't get the +3 bonus)
Stealth +6
Streetwise +5
Sleight of Hand +6
Profession (beggar) gives +2 synergy to Acting and Streetwise, and the use of Influence at +2 when Kugel is acting like a beggar or moving in similar social circles at the DM's judgement.
Knowledge (local) is at +5 (level+3+Int).

 

[MerricB]

Only one person in a group ever needs to make a spot check. I don't see players taking it that often. More do take it and take it as ccross class but not even close to "nearly every".

Well, that depends a lot on how your DM interprets the surprise rules. The way it was explained in 3e often came down to this:

You open a door: everyone makes a DC 20 Spot check and those who make it can act in the Surprise round.

Cheers!

 

[hong]

Well, that depends a lot on how your DM interprets the surprise rules. The way it was explained in 3e often came down to this:

You open a door: everyone makes a DC 20 Spot check and those who make it can act in the Surprise round.

Cheers!

That's rather... odd. I would think that after the first ten times they bumped into the orcs on the other side, they'd remember to check first.

I would run it as: BEFORE opening the door, everyone makes a Listen check; if anyone makes it, the whole group gets to act in the surprise round (assuming the guy who made the check tells the rest of the party).

 

[swrushing]

Just some miscellaneous comments.

Doing some projects which required me to generate a number of 10th level characters from scratch has led me to believe its a bit more work than I like. part of it is not having everything in one source and the back and forth look ups.

I like skills and i like feats but some degree of narrowing down seems good to me. Chargen needs to be quicker.

Aside: As a Gm i do not adopt the "just max npcs skills" approach because the only use for those npc skills will be with the party, and if i do that so all the players see are maxed skills this will provoke them to max skills as well. Someone who spreads his skills around here and there to suit concept will be seeing this as a problem.

Some suggestions i would make are...

Cross-class: drop the 2-fer-1 ranks thing entirely. Every skill pt gets you +1. Simply limit CC skills to 1/2 level or if you must 1/2 (level+3.) This makes counting skills spent etc much simpler.

Skills: definitely consolidate some skills. make hide+MS = stealth, i like athletics, I like combining spot-listen into notice/awareness, open locks into disable, etc. IMO knowledge skills should be ONE SKILL, allowing you full bonus into a few categories and half bonus to everything else. maybe full category per int bonus.

Feats: please, some generality to consolidate. Give us a generic "skill master" which gives "+2 with two related skills" not several dozen different feats spread over three sourcebooks.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

One thing to remember is that if you're going to consolidate a large amount of skills you need to decrease the amount of skill points each class gives...or completely rework the max levels mechanic.

No. Since every class gets far too few skill points as it is decreasing the number of skills (in my case by 4) and increasing the number of skill points (again in my case by 2) does not adversly affect the max ranks/level mechanic. No class gets more (or even close to equal) skill points than they have skills. I would have thought that was obvious.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Only one person in a group ever needs to make a spot check. I don't see players taking it that often. More do take it and take it as ccross class but not even close to "nearly every".

Obviously our experinces differ.

The climb skill does not mean the person is a mountain climber. As a kid I climbed trees, I climbed barns, I climbed hill sides, but never mountains. For my climbing I never needed rope. So, while the skills can be related they don't have to be. But if a character were taking climb to climb mountains, then he should also be taking use rope.

Still seems an unnecessary distinction. Mountain climbers are going to have to be able to use rope for knots whatever - if climb is only good for climbing trees or things with easily grasped hand holds then the DC will never rise above 10 and both climb and Use rope become useless. I remain unconvinced (but that's Ok since we all play the way we like, right?)

And you can have a Wizard with a high move silently and hide skill. Wizards actually usually get plenty of skill points to spend. Plus they can multi class to get even more and make those skills a class skill.

But with a tiny list of class skills and (at most) 7 skill points/level (human, Int 18 - not a normal setup for your typical 25 point character) those skill points get burned up quickly with even a couple of cross class skills - especailly since most parties look to the wizard for thos e precious knowledge skills. Also having to multi-class the wizard just to get a few skills hardly seems worth it (or much of a solution - what if multi-classing makes no sense for my character concept?)

 

[Crothian]

Use rope though includes many things not asosciated with cvlimbing. At the same ti9me, Climb includes climbing without the aid of rope. THe skills can be used together, but are more often going to be used apart.

A wizard who is sneaky has options to do so. they can multi class (and that is one of the reasons to multi class to gain access to alternative skills) or they can choose feats to make a cross class skill a class skill.

My combiniung so many skills together we weaken the skill system, and weaken the skill oriented classes. Each skill covers so much that it is no longer one classes role to have these X skills while this other class as Y skills.