D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Bull's Strength

[Hypersmurf]

As far as divine power, I don't really have a problem with it. The +6 takes care of the major abuse, which is the 8 Str cleric (who point buys his way into higher stats elsewhere) then relies on Divine Power to help him in combat.

That's not Divine Power abuse.

Divine Power abuse is Polymorphing the barbarian into a Str 1 raven, who then uses his purple Ioun Stone to cast Divine Power, which grants a +17 Enhancement bonus.

You then Polymorph him into a Str 23 Troll.

23 + 17 + 4 from Rage is a 44 Strength for the duration of Divine Power...

-Hyp.

 

[Numion]

This is pretty much exactly opposite to my instincts as a player. As a cleric, I wouldn't get Cat's Grace and if I did, I probably wouldn't be able to use the increased dexterity too much due to armor (well my archer cleric would have but not my melee cleric). And I don't think any of my characters would be comfortable relying on Endurance for con when they had the money for an item--endurance would make too much ride on not getting dispelled. They might choose strength buffs for the savings but even those start to get a little iffy.

But if you weren't going to buy the Dex item in the first place, there wouldn't be money lost nor saved. My cleric archer has all the three physical stats boosted, with two spells for some in case I roll low (if I roll high the first spell, then the fighter gets the back-up spell).

Polymorph would be a separate problem altogether. (And it's not directly a cleric problem is it--after all, it's not on their list).

In 3e Polymorph Self is good enough to be cast with Miracle (no exp, can mimic any spell up to 7th level.) But alas, thats another issue that really has little to do with this debate.

Hmmm. The cleric in my group was more than happy to start buffing the fighter as soon as he had a quality fighter in his group--he figured that if he got to be the healer instead of the one going up against the summoned Dire tigers, he'd be safer and happier.

Not the tank dwarf-cleric in my group. Due to his numerous boosts he was much better fighter than a fighter. He liked to be up front in the combat, and that made sense because of his deity. Polymorphed into a Stone Giant with triple-empowered Bull's Strength rocked hard.

This seems to somewhat undercut your argument. If the buff spells make such a difference then dispelling would usually be a very good tactic and might even contribute to killing them directly. (In fact, against a cleric suspected to have even normal endurance running--let alone multiply empowered endurance spells--a Dispel Magic is likely to do at least as much effective damage as a fireball or ice storm in addition to its other debilitating effects).

You're right .. it does undercut it a little. But still I would rather try to use a couple of Horrid Wiltings instead of couple of Greater Dispellings. Those Wiltings can end the encounter. Dispels don't even affect the fighters. Thats a fresh point of view that Dispels might cause more damage if they dispel the emp. endurances.

 

[Al]

Never in my games. Clerics and wizzies tended to use those boosts themselves - fighters were stuck at +6 while clerics had +10 or even +12 to STR

Then, by and large, they were idiots. Persistent Divine Power, giving a +6 to hit and damage by top-level, was almost invariably better than Triple-Empowered Bull's Strength, at three levels lower.

Nowadays, Divine Power is comparable to Bull's Strength. Bull's Strength gives a +2 to hit and damage for a limited number of encounters, say, three (four encounters in a day- they're not all going to happen in 20 mins). DP can give a maximum of +6 to hit and damage for one. The problem of course- DP is 1st level, BS is 2nd.

 

[drnuncheon]

It has a personal range, and Persistent Spell has not been weakened in any way with the revision.

That doesn't seem at all abusive to you? Not even a little?

I submit to you, sir, that the abuse is not in a spell which lasts 1 round per level, but rather in the feat that allows such a spell to last for twenty-four hours.

One might wonder, then, why divine power is the target of your ire...

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Divine Power abuse is Polymorphing the barbarian into a Str 1 raven, who then uses his purple Ioun Stone to cast Divine Power, which grants a +17 Enhancement bonus.

You then Polymorph him into a Str 23 Troll.

23 + 17 + 4 from Rage is a 44 Strength for the duration of Divine Power...

...unless you interpret the spell as always providing just enough of an enhancement bonus to get you to Str 18, instead of having that bonus be 'fixed' at the casting of the spell.

J

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What you're observing then isn't the "broken" effect of the buff spells. It's the broken effect of the buff spells combined with the miracle spell used to get Polymorph Self.

Strength bonusses, like all other bonusses, don't simply have a mathematical effect on combat effectiveness; they have an exponential effect--each increase increases the chance to hit and the amount of damage thus doubly increasing the amount of average damage/round. And when average damage/round hits a certain level (varying according to what creatures are being fought, etc), it has dramatic effects on the length of combat. Against worgs with 32 hp each, a character who does 16+ points of damage per round is 50% more effective than a character who does only 15 points of damage/round--and three times as effective if mr 16+ has cleave and 15+ doesn't.

Consequently, giving +12 strength to a 24 strength polymorphed giant is dramatically more significant than the same +12 strength boost for an 18 strength fighter.

In a three spell, 1 feat combination like this (Miracle, Polymorph Self, Empower Spell, Bull's Strength), I don't think you can immediately make the conclusion that any particular part is broken in and of itself simply on the strength of the example.

Not the tank dwarf-cleric in my group. Due to his numerous boosts he was much better fighter than a fighter. He liked to be up front in the combat, and that made sense because of his deity. Polymorphed into a Stone Giant with triple-empowered Bull's Strength rocked hard.

 

[drnuncheon]

Not the tank dwarf-cleric in my group. Due to his numerous boosts he was much better fighter than a fighter. He liked to be up front in the combat, and that made sense because of his deity. Polymorphed into a Stone Giant with triple-empowered Bull's Strength rocked hard.

As an aside...

You know, if I were a deity, and a cleric of mine spent most of his time polymorphed into another race, I think I'd feel a bit offended. I'd be thinking, "What, are you saying the shape I gave you isn't good enough?"

Especially if I were a dwarven deity and my cleric spent most of his fighting time in the shape of one of his traditional racial enemies.

J

 

[fba827]

back to bull's strength/stat spells

Just to fan the flames a little:
I have read somewhere on these boards that the stat boosting spells will be a flat +4 instead of 1d4+1 similar to d20 modern.
<snip>

The +4 static bonus makes me think about something else --
it no longer offers that little extra "omph" to those with odd-numbered attribute scores.
Previously, with the possibility of odd-number boosts, those people with odd-numbered scores got a little extra when compared to those with even numbered scores.

I seem to recall when 3e came out, it was specifically mentioned that (since there was no real numerical advantage to having an odd and even score in the same grouping, that things like the feat prereqs. being odd numbers and the stat boosting spells having the potential for odd numbers would offer a slight bonus to those who took a 13 in a score vs. a 12 (or any other odd/even pairing).

Compare:
Strength 12 (+1)
+2 = 14 (+2)
+3 = 15 (+2)
+4 = 16 (+3)
+5 = 17 (+3)

(potential to go up 1 to 2 modifier categories)

Strength 13 (+1)
+2 = 15 (+2)
+3 = 16 (+3)
+4 = 17 (+3)
+5 = 18 (+4)

(potential to go up 1 to 3 modifier categories)

While there is no real "point" here, I just thought it was interesting to see that this change removes the minor boone it once gave an odd-numbered stat scores.

 

[Hypersmurf]

...unless you interpret the spell as always providing just enough of an enhancement bonus to get you to Str 18, instead of having that bonus be 'fixed' at the casting of the spell.

That's not abuse, then, is it?

But seriously, auto-updating spells cause more problems than they solve... the Shillelagh effect...

-Hyp.

 

[Numion]

As an aside...

You know, if I were a deity, and a cleric of mine spent most of his time polymorphed into another race, I think I'd feel a bit offended. I'd be thinking, "What, are you saying the shape I gave you isn't good enough?"

Well, the player used Miracle as if his character had his God on speed dial.. "I need to go to magic shoppe .. I'll cast miracle to get there and another to get back". Said player wasn't a great roleplayer and I didn't feel like enforcing a point.

Especially if I were a dwarven deity and my cleric spent most of his fighting time in the shape of one of his traditional racial enemies.

Stone Giants as such aren't evil, and their relations to dwarves might vary from campaign to campaign. Having said that, I really didn't like what the player was doing, and I'm glad it won't work in 3.5e.