D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Archer changes

[LokiDR]

Umm, a 10 gp short sword is "not that cheap"? Heck, using that, he wins the grapple contest handily.

310 isn't. You were looking for masterwork.

No, NPCs frequently work in groups. How often do you throw your party up against a single fighter? That's just silly. Not even the WotC modules do that, almost all NPCs are found in groups.

Al said they would go up against various NPCs, he didn't say "they will go up against NPCs copied by rote from the DMG with no regard to sensibility".

I often throw my party up against a single fighter and have had it done to me on many occasions. Monsters are not that often found in groups. The NPCs in the DMG are complete, for NPCs. Does every person in your world carry the "adventure's kit"? Does every person know and travel with a caster? If so, read Enemies and Allies for a different view on NPC tatics.

NPCs often work in groups. Most NPCs have allies, and can reasonably expect to have a minimum of support.

Humanoids, perhaps. How many shamen does the local barbarian tribe have? How many clerics in the local thieves guild? NPCs are meant to be weaker than PCs.

No, I can make most of the challenges he posted single hit kills, which is among the reasons why they are silly challenges.

Prove it.

No, it is an inherently poor and therefore, unfair challenge. If the barbarian kills every one of the opponents with a single shot (as I believe he can), what will your response be then?

That you whined far too much before proving your point.

 

[Storm Raven]

310 isn't. You were looking for masterwork.

Umm, reread what I wrote. I said not even a dagger or short sword, let alone a relatively cheap (for the wealth level of a 12th level NPC) masterwork version.

I often throw my party up against a single fighter and have had it done to me on many occasions.

Then you have been given (and given) easy challenges. Assuming the single fighter facing your party was of equal level to you, of course.

Monsters are not that often found in groups.

Really? Then why do they have the "organization" tag on each one of them, and virtually all of them appear in groups?

The NPCs in the DMG are complete, for NPCs. Does every person in your world carry the "adventure's kit"? Does every person know and travel with a caster? If so, read Enemies and Allies for a different view on NPC tatics.

No, they are baselines. Rote basic versions to use on a quick and dirty basis. Most individuals should team up with a caster: the benefits are too great not to seek that out.

Humanoids, perhaps. How many shamen does the local barbarian tribe have? How many clerics in the local thieves guild? NPCs are meant to be weaker than PCs.

How big is the tribe? How big is the guild? NPCs are meant to present challenges for PCs. The DMG NPCs are not designed to do that.

Prove it.

Sure, give me a minute. (I have to open my DMG to work out the specifics of the worthless opponents he will face).

 

[Al]

Storm Raven:

You've posted repeatedly about how my test is fundamentally flawed. If you could post a better one I'd greatly appreciate it. Failing that, subject your meleeist to the series of tests. If you can do neither, there is no point us continuing, though I would feel it would certainly appear as though you were conceding...Seriously, if you can design a fair and impartial series of NPCs, I'm more than happy to fight them. If you can't/won't, then the DMG NPCs are the most impartial ones I can find. I didn't make those NPCs deliberately to suck against archers. If I designed a series of NPCs and they lost against the archer, you would accuse me of unfair play, perhaps rightly. The DMG standards are precisely that- standard. That's precisely why they were used. As for whether they are a challenge or not, that's a moot point. WotC obviously think that they're a reasonable challenge, otherwise they wouldn't have made them. In any event, the chances are that most 'casual' players, who I would argue represent most players, *will* use DMG-type NPCs. Not everyone has as much time on their hands as you and I .

On a slightly different note, incidentally, even if the barbarian gets a MW shortsword, he still loses. He wastes a MEA trying to draw it, his strength is only 15 (fatigued) against the archer's 16-19, his weapon is only MW against the archer's +1, the archer is using Weapon Finesse (for a +6 to hit vs. the barb's +2 from Strength) and the barb has an inferior AC. Again, fighting defensively is the archer's best friend. The barb scores just 0.2325 hits per round if the archer fights defensively, inflicting a humble 5.5 damage per hit. He will take only 1.28 points per round, so it will take somewhere in the region of 60 (!) rounds to kill him. The archer, even fighting defensively, will score 1.2 hits per round, each scoring 8 points per hit, for 9.6 hits per round. He kills the barbarian in 12 rounds, or one-fifth the time it takes the barbarian to kill the archer. So either way you cut it, the archer wins.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On a slightly different note, incidentally, even if the barbarian gets a MW shortsword, he still loses. He wastes a MEA trying to draw it, his strength is only 15 (fatigued) against the archer's 16-19, his weapon is only MW against the archer's +1, the archer is using Weapon Finesse (for a +6 to hit vs. the barb's +2 from Strength) and the barb has an inferior AC.

Let's try that again.

If the barbarian wins initiative, he Rages, drinks his potion of Haste and Charges for a grapple. No AoO because the archer is flat-footed and doesn't threaten an area. No Total Defence, because the archer hasn't acted yet. The "wasted MEA" is redundant - the archer has to draw a sword as well. The Barbarian is not fatigued, but rather Raging, and Hasted to boot.

Is your archer still confident he can win the grapple?

-Hyp.

 

[Andion Isurand]

TACTICS THAT CAN BE USED RIGHT NOW

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If you are physically less capable of defending yourself from ranged attacks, you can use an ally for cover who is better at it.

Any character of Large size ( or more? ) will provide more cover and probably have more hit points.

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Tower Sheilds can also grant you up to Total Cover (right?)

Get behind allies carrying tower sheilds.

(If the rogue or mage is a small halfing, and the tower sheild bearing fighter is big enough.... I think someone's getting a piggy back ride!)

"Hey, big guy... you should design secret small handholds on the back of your armor, so I can jump on and take a ride when things get rough."

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If you hate fighting archers, you can always take Arrow Deflection feats... all the way up to the epic feats on the same feat tree.

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If you hate fighting archers, try Disarming them using your whip ( or dagger whip ) while making use of the Spring Attack feat and nearby sources of concealemt and cover.

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How often will arrows have a +5 bonus before caster level 15 (3.0 GMW)?

Protection from Arrows (sor/wiz 2)
Reverse Arrows (sor/wiz 3)

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Wind and weather affecting spells also hamper ranged attacks.

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Uising the all-out defensive action ( a standard action I believe ) will allow you to move toward an archer more safely, until your close enough to charge them.

Tumble skill ranks improve the dodge bonuses granted by the Fighting Defensively and All out Defense Actions.

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When you first close the distance between you and the offending archer, try cutting thier bowstring using the Improved Sunder feat. Its really easy to sunder a bowstring with a slashing weapon (including the Dagger Whip).

Plus, after you kill them, the bow is still in good shape for you to take it for yourself or one of your allies.

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The Tumble check needed to stand up from prone as a free action (kip-up) is 35. So you might be able to use prone position tactics to defend yourself against ranged attacks.

 

[Al]

Let's try that again.

If the barbarian wins initiative, he Rages, drinks his potion of Haste and Charges for a grapple. No AoO because the archer is flat-footed and doesn't threaten an area. No Total Defence, because the archer hasn't acted yet. The "wasted MEA" is redundant - the archer has to draw a sword as well. The Barbarian is not fatigued, but rather Raging, and Hasted to boot.

Is your archer still confident he can win the grapple?

-Hyp.

Not to sound churlish, but yes. Fighting defensively, he still stands a good chance.

First of all, the chance of a touch attack: 90%
Chance of barbarian winning initial grapple check: 63.8%.

So far, so good for the barbarian. However, once grappling, the archer fights defensively with his shortsword for all he's worth. Unfortunately, in the first round, he only gets one attack since he needs to draw his sword. He deals an average 3.85 damage in round one and 6.3 in the three subsequent rounds (until rage and haste wear off). The barbarian can deal 9.1315 in the four subsequent rounds. After haste and rage have gone, the archer is on 69hps, the barbarian (post-rage) is on 84.25hps. After that, however, the barbarian is down to doing 1.2 or so (as before) and the archer is doing 9.6 (as before). So the archer kills the barbarian in nine rounds whilst the barbarian would take around sixty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not to sound churlish, but yes. Fighting defensively, he still stands a good chance.

Fighting Defensively is of no help against Pin and Grapple Damage. It's all down to Opposed Grapple Checks, where the Barbarian has the advantage.

Each round, the Barbarian Pins the archer with as many of his four attacks as he needs to make it stick, and then uses the other checks to deal 1d3+Str subdual damage each, ignoring AC. On his own turn, the archer has to spend attacks to attempt to break the Pin before he can do anything else... or use a standard action to make an Escape Artist check, in which case he can't do anything else that round.

And his Rage lasts 7 rounds, BTW.

-Hyp.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

A bow made of metal? What's your range increment, three feet?

-Hyp.

Nonononono. The gauntlets.

Bows would be made with darkwood or duskwood or something.

 

[Storm Raven]

On a slightly different note, incidentally, even if the barbarian gets a MW shortsword, he still loses. He wastes a MEA trying to draw it, his strength is only 15 (fatigued) against the archer's 16-19, his weapon is only MW against the archer's +1, the archer is using Weapon Finesse (for a +6 to hit vs. the barb's +2 from Strength) and the barb has an inferior AC. Again, fighting defensively is the archer's best friend. The barb scores just 0.2325 hits per round if the archer fights defensively, inflicting a humble 5.5 damage per hit. He will take only 1.28 points per round, so it will take somewhere in the region of 60 (!) rounds to kill him. The archer, even fighting defensively, will score 1.2 hits per round, each scoring 8 points per hit, for 9.6 hits per round. He kills the barbarian in 12 rounds, or one-fifth the time it takes the barbarian to kill the archer. So either way you cut it, the archer wins.

Wrong.

(1) Fighting defensively doesn't help the archer in the grapple. Actually, it harms him tremendously as it makes his attack rolls less effective without giving him as much of a benefit to his AC.

(2) The barbarian doesn't wait until he is fatigued to grapple the archer, he does it right off the bat. His action sequence is (1) quaff potion of haste, (2) rage, (3) charge and grapple. Once he has grappled, he uses a partial action to draw the shortsword, and still has a full attack action left. Every other round, he has his full "full round plus partial action" action sequence to use against the archer. His rage lasts 7 rounds. While grappling his attack bonus is equal to the archers, and his damage bonus is better, the barbarian, on average, will inflict more damage on the archer than the archer inflicts on him.

Archer dies.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Putting silence on a wizard requires him to fail a Will save. Good luck. Putting it near him just makes him take a move action to get out of the relatively small area.
[/B]

Still, it's possible. And depending on the confinements he may not be able to move out of that area....

Taking his spell component pouch only works if (a) he doesn't have a spare, (b) he doesn't have extra components elsewhere, (c) he doesn't have the eschew mateiral components feat, and (d) he's out of spells that don't require material components (there are a lot of spells that are V and/or S only).

Then take his spare one as well. Or grapple him. That works as well as it works with archers, and the wizard will have an even worse bonus to grapple.

Against high level opponents it is usually reasonable to expect many enemies will have magical enhancements equal to or better than those of the archer, even if they are only fueled by Greater Magical Weapon.

Don't forget we're talking NPC's, which have less money than PC's. Also, if they aren't alone they have a lower level then the party (or it is a difficult encounter, and those aren't the norm), and so the benefit of money and spellpower will be with the party archer (and the party as a whole)

And giants with reach is exactly the reason that many fighters (and other melee specialists) use reach weapons themsevles. There are few things better than a glaive for equalizing this sort of situation.

The problem with reach weapons (if those melee fighters have them) is that it isn't natural reach, and so they can't attack enemies that are right in front of them. So as soon as he uses his reach weapon, the giants will step in. Or they have higher reach...

Your bows are made of metal?

Did I say so? We were talking gauntlets.

Examples? How does an archer avoid the danger of his bow getting sundered other than by keeping enemies out of melee range (not that easy a task either).

Take a weapon proficiency to use the bow as a melee weapon. In a world where every Joe Melee Warrior rushes past the party tanks to sunder the archer's bow, this will be very worthwhile.

It is relatively small, but spending resources on a tactic that may be useful someday in some undefined circumstance is rarely a good move.

It's defined enough to blow a mere 1500 gp (which might otherwise be left over anyway)