OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[HomegrownHydra]

Problem is, presenting it as optional rather than core guarantees it'll be ignored by 75% of the DM/player base.

If those players would ignore it if it's included in the DMG then they certainly aren't going to shell out extra money to buy it separately, especially if it is priced as a full stand alone game.

 

[Lanefan]

Citation needed.

As someone who is in the group pointedly ignored, rejected, and even openly mocked by the designers of 5e,

Er...to quote you: citation needed.

it was NOT made to be fun for everyone. It was made to be fun for a specific range of people, and anyone outside it frequently gets told to stuff it or, even better, gets (fully sincerely!) told to be happy they got any tiny scraps of support at all.

That "specific range of people" would seem to be pretty wide, if 5e's ongoing and (as far as I know) still-growing popularity is anything to go by.

And I say this as someone outside that specific range.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Er...to quote you: citation needed.

That "specific range of people" would seem to be pretty wide, if 5e's ongoing and (as far as I know) still-growing popularity is anything to go by.

And I say this as someone outside that specific range.

Can you elaborate on this? I don't know what you are speaking of and am genuinely interested.

I have not noticed the designers of 5E openly mocking people. Perhaps it happened and I missed it. There have been many allegations of racism and things at WOTC, and printed material that would tend to support this idea, but these have not been "open" and either fall more into "he said - she said" or a mistake which was apologized for and fixed.

Back during the D&D Next playtest, Mike Mearls openly and intentionally cracked anti-4e edition warrior jokes on a podcast. He very specifically used the phrase "shouting hands back on," which originated from edition warriors hating 4e because the Warlord could actually heal. He followed that with an extremely lame "now I'm being ridiculous," bit he was sincerely using those jokes as a reason for why the Warlord class should not exist. I don't remember which podcast it was, but it did happen.

Likewise, on one of the blog posts about D&D Next, which conveniently got deleted when WotC changed their website for the umpteenth time, another of 5e's designers openly poked fun at the very idea of liking dragonborn, as though only weirdos and crazy people could ever be into them. He ended that blog post with the oh-so-magnanimous stance of saying (more or less) that there was no accounting for taste.

Yeah. The 5e designers were more than once actively signalling "4e fans are not welcome here." They made plenty of motions as though that weren't true, sure. But nobody else got actively crapped on the way 4e fans did.

The "big tent" is a big, ahem, alternative fact.

 

[Zardnaar]

Back during the D&D Next playtest, Mike Mearls openly and intentionally cracked anti-4e edition warrior jokes on a podcast. He very specifically used the phrase "shouting hands back on," which originated from edition warriors hating 4e because the Warlord could actually heal. He followed that with an extremely lame "now I'm being ridiculous," bit he was sincerely using those jokes as a reason for why the Warlord class should not exist. I don't remember which podcast it was, but it did happen.

Likewise, on one of the blog posts about D&D Next, which conveniently got deleted when WotC changed their website for the umpteenth time, another of 5e's designers openly poked fun at the very idea of liking dragonborn, as though only weirdos and crazy people could ever be into them. He ended that blog post with the oh-so-magnanimous stance of saying (more or less) that there was no accounting for taste.

Yeah. The 5e designers were more than once actively signalling "4e fans are not welcome here." They made plenty of motions as though that weren't true, sure. But nobody else got actively crapped on the way 4e fans did.

The "big tent" is a big, ahem, alternative fact.

I remember a youtube video in lead up to 4E dumping on 3E.

Shouting on hands thing you woukd probably have to be thin skinned to take that as an insult. It's a big thing people didn't like from 4E rapid martial healing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I remember a youtube video in lead up to 4E dumping on 3E.

Shouting on hands thing you woukd probably have to be thin skinned to take that as an insult. It's a big thing people didn't like from 4E rapid martial healing.

I don't think you get to decide for me what qualifies as an insult or not. For numerous reasons, personal and impersonal.

It was, openly, an attack in the anti-4e edition war. Dispute that if you want. It is true, and it was absolutely used with intent to insult. The fact that the lead designer thought it was okay to quote active edition-warrior stances, even as a joke, is not okay.

I've seen the stuff "dumping" on 3e. It's nowhere near as bad. Not even remotely.

 

[bloodtide]

Citation needed.

As someone who is in the group pointedly ignored, rejected, and even openly mocked by the designers of 5e, it was NOT made to be fun for everyone. It was made to be fun for a specific range of people, and anyone outside it frequently gets told to stuff it or, even better, gets (fully sincerely!) told to be happy they got any tiny scraps of support at all.

I'm not saying it's made to be the perfect game for everyone in a good quality way. I'm saying it's made for everyone as the lowest common denominator. Anyone can turn their brain off and play some D&D 5E. Like anyone can turn off their brain and play checkers.

Any person can just stumble upon a 5E D&D game, flip through the Players Handbook and have "fun" playing the game. Kinda the same way you can play most board games made by Hasbro...hummmm.

Even more it's targeted at kids and young folk: can you read and do some easy math and like video games and cartoons...well we have the game for you: D&D 5E!

This is not to say D&D 5E is in any way a bad game, it's just made to be open and easily accessible to all.

I actually think the opposite is true: 5E is terrible for learning how to start your own campaigns.

Well...it's almost like they don't want you to play modern D&D as a "campaign"....just buy and use the next book published by WotC.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think you get to decide for me what qualifies as an insult or not. For numerous reasons, personal and impersonal.

It was, openly, an attack in the anti-4e edition war. Dispute that if you want. It is true, and it was absolutely used with intent to insult. The fact that the lead designer thought it was okay to quote active edition-warrior stances, even as a joke, is not okay.

I've seen the stuff "dumping" on 3e. It's nowhere near as bad. Not even remotely.

You're also missing out things such as any criticism of 4E was claimed as edition warring, lots of insults thrown 3E way and lots of one Tru wayisms while ignoring the rise of Pathfinder, OSR and collapse of 4E player base.

People who live in glass shouldn't throw stones.

Counter example. Ravenloft. Don't like it, doesn't do much for me I've thought it's stupid since the mid 90s. Not a fan of lovecraftian horror, Gothic horror or horror in general. Don't care about vampires.

Willing to bet not to many Ravenloft fan's will get to upset by that statement.

 

[Vaalingrade]

In answer to the original question: For some in the sphere, the and answer is no and that seems to be how they like it.

There are places and groups where it is possible, but in places where people still sneer when they say 'video game' and actively mock gaming just for fun instead of making it a lifestyle and core part of their personality? No, not really.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You're also missing out things such as any criticism of 4E was claimed as edition warring, lots of insults thrown 3E way and lots of one Tru wayisms while ignoring the rise of Pathfinder, OSR and collapse of 4E player base.

People who live in glass shouldn't throw stones.

Counter example. Ravenloft. Don't like it, doesn't do much for me I've thought it's stupid since the mid 90s. Not a fan of lovecraftian horror, Gothic horror or horror in general. Don't care about vampires.

Willing to bet not to many Ravenloft fan's will get to upset by that statement.

Probably because those are actual criticism of facts and also haven't been repeated on loop for ten years after the fact.

 

[Zardnaar]

Probably because those are actual criticism of facts and also haven't been repeated on loop for ten years after the fact.

Lots of facts about 4E. When 3E was dominant not to many people got upset about criticism of it (theres always 1).

Every edition is flawed in some way what's subjective is if it's a deal breaker or not.