D&D General Who “owns” a PC after the player stops using them?

[overgeeked]

I want to remind people, one owns ones own intellectual property, whether it is registered or not, whether it has a copyright notice or not.

Absolutely. Before the character enters the referee’s setting, it is solely the IP of the player. Once the PC enters, interacts with, affects, and is affected by the referee’s world, the character becomes a collaboration between the player’s IP and the referee’s IP. At that point both have equal IP claims on the character. You could equally argue the setting becomes a joint IP after the characters become involved. And the player is free to roll back the changes made to the character, pre-campaign, and claim that’s solely theirs, just as the referee could roll back any changes the PCs made to the setting and claim the setting is solely theirs.

 

[SableWyvern]

What if two players are hanging out privately, outside game night, and start a conversation between themselves, "What is the craziest thing that could theoretically happen to the PCs in our campaign?"

And then they start taking turns coming up with scenarios, and playing as the various characters (including ones that aren't their own PCs).

Should they make contact with the other participants to get permission first?

What if those two players continue to do this on a regular basis, as a side-game for their own entertainment?

What if they leave the main game, but continue to play their private game?


Edit: Oh, here's another one, what if a player steals an NPC for use as their own PC, or an NPC, in different game? Do they need permission from the GM of the original game? What if the NPC was created in conjunction with another player? Do both the player and GM need to agree?

 

[Seramus]

A PC that transforms into an NPC continues to do similar things to what it used to do as a PC. Sometimes that involves fading into obscurity, while other times they become a worthy contact the PCs can call upon, and once in a while they end up as a villain or villain-adjacent. I would certainly respect the desires of any player at my table that strongly opposed their character continuing to exist in my games, but it doesn't happen often.

 

[Xamnam]

A PC is a player's creation first and foremost, so, much like I wouldn't want to narrate them doing something that runs directly counter to the players envisioning of them at the table, if they have been retired or walked away from, I also wouldn't want to take them in a direction that the player would find unpleasant if they found out about it later. I've only ever played with friends, so for me it's a simple matter of respect to follow their wishes as far as what happens to the character after the player steps away. I certainly would not want to use them in a terribly plot central way, if for no other reason than me directly taking control of that character risks me playing them poorly in comparison. That said, off screen mention, especially that which validates their dreams, goals, and wishes as established seems like reasonably safe ground.

 

[MNblockhead]

I want to remind people, one owns ones own intellectual property, whether it is registered or not, whether it has a copyright notice or not.

Okay, now you are just goading me into instigating a lawsuit between me and my players, just so I can start a new crazy-D&D-related-lawsuit thread--mainly so I can read more exasperated posts by @Snarf Zagyg explaining how the law and litigation really works.

 

[MNblockhead]

First, no one has yet established in any way shape or form, that the law would consider you to have sole ownership of a character concept that exists in a shared imaginary world, especially one where other participants may (in some circumstances, depending on the rulestet, table etiquette, etc) be expected, in the normal course of play, to exert control over that character, and whose behaviour and history is likely to combine elements provided by multiple participants, both indirectly and directly.

If you do feel that IP Law applies in this instance, that also means you can't play any pre-existing imaginary character without the IP-holder's explicit permission. Are you contending that if I choose to pretend to be Harry Potter in the privacy of my own bedroom lounge room while conducting normal TTRPing, that I am in breach of IP law? If not, then I don't see what IP Law has to do with any of this.

Well, this did indeed become an issue with Critical Role and any early player they had to kick out of the show because of his poor behavior. They couldn't use his character going forward (or perhaps they just let him keep it, I don't know all the details). Maybe a better example would be Scott Kurtz retaining all ownership of Binwin Bronzebottom when he left Acquisitions Incorporated. I realize that these games and characters involved shows and products. But with the number of people live streaming their games, I can see issues like these arising. But as it pertains to ones unbroadcast and unpublished home game, I don't see what the cause of action would be. Maybe if the DM held on to the only copy of PC on a paper character sheet, which was created and by the player, if the player actually wanted to bring the DM to court to get it back.

 

[SableWyvern]

Well, this did indeed become an issue with Critical Role and any early player they had to kick out of the show because of his poor behavior. They couldn't use his character going forward (or perhaps they just let him keep it, I don't know all the details). Maybe a better example would be Scott Kurtz retaining all ownership of Binwin Bronzebottom when he left Acquisitions Incorporated. I realize that these games and characters involved shows and products. But with the number of people live streaming their games, I can see issues like these arising. But as it pertains to ones unbroadcast and unpublished home game, I don't see what the cause of action would be. Maybe if the DM held on to the only copy of PC on a paper character sheet, which was created and by the player, if the player actually wanted to bring the DM to court to get it back.

Yes, I'll happily accept that the issue may become more complex with publicly broadcast games. Those situations don't interest me, I hold no particular opinion on the legalities, and none of my comments should be taken to be making claims on that particular topic.

My objections are only to people who want to claim control of what other people are imagining or talking about in private, behind closed doors; especially in situations where the person making the claims to control/authority is no longer participating in those private games at all.

 

[Lanefan]

I think there's a few modes of play or circumstances that could complicate the question.

Do players normally run multiple characters? Either at once or shuffle though characters, like in a West Marches game, or if one character is doing long-term magical research so the player is using a different PC. If the player's intention is at least potentially to use that PC again later, the player owns the PC.

Is the player simply absent this session? Again, the player owns the PC. The other players run the PC or they fade into the background for the session.

Has the player abandoned the character? Clearly the player has no intention of playing the character again, therefore the referee owns the PC. This is close enough to any kind of permission the referee would need.

Has the player left the game? Both the player and the referee own the character. The player is free to take the character forward with them and the referee is free to continue using the character as an NPC. They're alternate timeline versions of the same character. If the player comes back to the game later, then they can either accept what the referee had the character do in the meantime, or they can create a new PC. Or one version is a clone, a copy, a robot in disguise, etc.

This last one is where we differ. To me, even if the player has left the game the character still defaults to belonging to the player, unless the player has given permission for it to be used as an NPC (or, in rare cases, has given it over to another player to keep playing).

If a character is abandoned and the player says nothing to the DM then the character still belongs to the player IMO. And I'm only talking about the character in its orginal campaign; if the player wants to port a character from my game over to a different DM's game or campaign all they have to do is let me know and I'll find a way for it to just happen to plane-shift over there.

But, overall, it's an odd question to me. One that would only actually seem to matter in a modern-style game where the specific PCs are incredibly important to the unfolding story the group is playing through.

It can also matter in games like mine where players and (more frequently) characters come and go over the years. In the 16 years my current campaign has been going there's been a total of 13 players, of which I'm still in touch with 11. The 12th player's surviving characters are in theory still out there somewhere but there's been no reason to do anything with them (and just about everyone who ever knew them is either retired or dead anyway); and the 13th player's only character died ages ago.

And all of those players (well, except unlucky #13) each have numerous characters in the setting in various states: some are active, some are on hold, and many are retired including all of those whose players are neither in the game nor expected to reappear any time soon.

In older-style games, where the story is emergent and depends on who's being played now, it's basically a moot point. The referee probably has more NPCs than they know what to do with so wouldn't need the old PC as a new NPC. "What's that old PC up to?" It doesn't matter. We have treasure to find and monsters to fight.

Indeed. This whole discussion came from someone saying that a player's character became an NPC on retirement even if its player was still in the game; and that would never fly here given that we cycle characters in and out of parties all the time.

 

[Lanefan]

Honestly, once a PC becomes a permanent NPC, they're free game for the DM to take over as needed. I'll generally handle them based on the trajectory they were on when they stopped being a PC, but if the active PCs cross paths with them in the future, their status and circumstances may have significantly changed.

This is just my point: the bolded shouldn't be able to happen absent permission of that character's (ex-)player. And if that permission isn't given then IMO the DM really shouldn't use that character as an NPC if at all possible - there's millions of other characters in the setting. Now if interaction with an ex-PC is unavoidable (e.g. when the player left she had the PC retire to take over the party's home-base inn), that's different; but even there the DM shouldn't IMO make any significant changes to the character.

 

[Distracted DM]

Maybe it's insensitive of me to consider, by default, that the player characters that retire, die, ascend to deities, or otherwise pass out of player control are now mine to do with as I please in my setting? I do consult the players on the rare occasion when I think their input should be considered.

I'm a big fan of incorporating the stuff characters have done, how they've made their mark etc, on the world when relevant.

• I've had players retire characters to rule the town they founded, because the player didn't want the character to die.
• I've had characters ascend to sainthood and become new deity choices. I've asked them for input on the specifics of the new religion.
• I've had a character lose their soul to a celestial in a game of lawn darts and basically become a servant of fate post-campaign- they answered a Summon Celestial once.
• I've had a character make a deal with a devil to redeem a cursed loved one. That character became a devil (as per agreement) once they died well after the campaign had ended, and I used said devil as an NPC in a short adventure arc.
• I've had magic equipment named after past characters.

Basically, I make use of former player characters in many ways- I consult the former players on rare occasions but largely I come up with a lot of my stuff on the fly during sessions so I don't, can't, or wouldn't think to ask for permission!