D&D General When to know a rule?

[mamba]

Meh. If you cannot see the difference here, there's no point in this conversation. You keep trying to bring up a bunch of extraneous elements that have nothing to do with my argument. Are we talking about equipment? Are we talking about magic items? News to me.

I indeed see no qualitative difference between a spell and a magic item that would require the player / character to know every single one beforehand for spells but not for magic items.

We're talking about the DM bringing in hundreds and hundreds of custom spells then absolutely refusing to let the players look at them and then getting huffy when the players insist that they would like to see them.

Would you play in this game? Looks like a perfectly legitimate thing for the players to ask. Five THOUSAND new spells and the DM refuses to let you see any of them? Because he figures that he knows the game better than everyone at his table?

5000 is a lot, no doubt. I do not care so much about how many there are as how many of them I encounter as a player.

If during a campaign (say 50 sessions) I encounter 10 (and they are similar-ish to existing spells rather than unbalanced gotchas) I have no problem with that. If pretty much every enemy casts stuff I have no idea about then I very much do have a problem. I have nothing against there being stuff I do not know of, it’s a large world, but it has to be in moderation

 

[Hussar]

In our latest campaign, they get them until level 3. For spells of level 4-9, they get only slots. Spells, they need to find, buy, beg, borrow or steal ( or make them themselves).

Ahh. Ok. Fair enough. And if we were talking about your game, it would make sense to talk about your homebrew rules.

But claiming that casters don't automatically get spells when they level up, when we're talking about the rules of 5e (and not your specific version of the game) seems rather strange.

 

[James Gasik]

And what of divine casters? They have access to every spell on their spell list. The books even specifically say so.

I wanted to touch on this, because there can, in fact, be cases where a divine caster might not know that a spell on their list exists. This isn't 5e content, but I think it's relevant (from the 2e Tome of Magic):

Here, we have a book that adds more spell options to Priests. Rather than say "poof, you can add these spells to your character", it goes over reasons why these spells can suddenly become available. It may be that the spell existed, but your Cleric or Druid doesn't know about it, and has to request it from their deity once the knowledge is gained, or they meet certain requirements. It's perfectly fine to add a spell to even the Cleric spell list to your game without immediately telling all your Cleric players "oh hey, you can use this spell now". It could be a plot point that, long ago, the leader of your Religious Order banned certain spells and so the knowledge of their existence was lost, and then you come upon a scroll of one such spell in a dungeon and realize "oh hey, this is a thing I can do!", not even knowing that it's a forbidden spell!

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, you don't even have to be that cutthroat about it. The PHB does not say anything about automatically having knowledge of all spells. For wizards and sorcerers, it simply says that you get to choose new spells. You can interpret that as whatever spells are available across every source is fair game, or you can interpret that as you can choose new spells that you know about. The PHB also offers up the idea that wizards, in particular, can find new spells in dusty tomes, and scrolls, etc (in the Your Spellbook sidebar). Why would they need to do this if the existence of every spell was immediately known? Because the game has always offered up the idea that new spells can be discovered in the course of adventuring.

Because if you read that sidebar, it's talking about how wizards can add extra spells to their spell book, beyond the two they get every level.

 

[AnotherGuy]

In our latest campaign, they get them until level 3. For spells of level 4-9, they get only slots. Spells, they need to find, buy, beg, borrow or steal ( or make them themselves).

Wonderful idea!

 

[Hussar]

I indeed see no qualitative difference between a spell and a magic item that would require the player / character to know every single one beforehand for spells but not for magic items.

Guess there is no point then.

Let's try it this way.

Do characters get magic items when they level up in your game? Yes or no? Do they automatically gain new magic items at specific levels?

I strongly doubt it.

Do characters get to choose the monsters they face in adventures? Can the players specify the type and number of monsters they will meet in every encounter in your games?

I strongly doubt it.

Do characters, upon leveling up, gain access to a specified number of spells depending on their class in your games?

I believe that they do. Barring some homebrew campaigns, I imagine most people's games are pretty much the same. PC levels up, PC gains new spells.

Does that make it clear what the difference is between monsters (purely under the DM's purview), equipment (also purely under the DM's purview), magic items (also purely under the DM's purview, barring some specific exceptions like Artificer) and spells?

And, let's be clear here. We're not talking about A spell. We're talking about FIVE THOUSAND spells. Something on the order of several HUNDRED pages of material. The 3.5 D&D Spell Compendium had one thousand spells. Well, a bit more. So, we're talking about a tome that's four or five TIMES longer than the 3.5 Spell Compendium, which was about 280 pages long.

And the DM is steadfastly refusing to allow the players any access to it.

Are you seriously going to say that you would be perfectly fine with this if your DM did this? Your DM plunks down about a thousand pages of homebrew spells and says, "Yup, I'm going to use these in the game, but, you are 100% verbotten from seeing any of them until I choose to use them in the game." No warning bells? No red flags whatsoever. Not even the slightest twinge of doubt in your mind?

 

[TiQuinn]

Because if you read that sidebar, it's talking about how wizards can add extra spells to their spell book, beyond the two they get every level.

Right, but it also indicates that DMs can choose to release spells into their campaigns in this way as well. The language supports both your POV as well as mine.

 

[mamba]

Does that make it clear what the difference is between monsters (purely under the DM's purview), equipment (also purely under the DM's purview), magic items (also purely under the DM's purview, barring some specific exceptions like Artificer) and spells?

I did not say there was no difference, of course there is. I was saying I see no qualitative difference that results in the player having to know all spells in the world while it is ok to not know all magic items or monsters.

Explaining the basic rules to me does not really make that case either, I already knew that part and still do not see it

And, let's be clear here. We're not talking about A spell. We're talking about FIVE THOUSAND spells. Something on the order of several HUNDRED pages of material.

I added to my post that you quoted, maybe you missed that part, maybe you just did not quote it

5000 is a lot, no doubt. I do not care so much about how many there are as how many of them I encounter as a player.

If during a campaign (say 50 sessions) I encounter 10 (and they are similar-ish to existing spells rather than unbalanced gotchas) I have no problem with that. If pretty much every enemy casts stuff I have no idea about then I very much do have a problem. I have nothing against there being stuff I do not know of, it’s a large world, but it has to be in moderation

 

[James Gasik]

The idea that a spellcaster might have researched their own spell, and (gasp!) didn't immediately go out and share it with everyone they knew is also a thing. If nothing else, it's more interesting that wizards in every D&D world can access spelsl created by Greyhawk wizards of note like Leomund, Melf, Rary, Bigby, Tasha, or Evard!

Mordenkainen though, he's a big plane traveler (and a massive ham), so that makes a little more sense, at least.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Because it, in my opinion, reflects poorly on the DM. It makes them seem petty at best, and malicious at worst. It doesn't inspire my eagerness to engage, but instead makes me question why this person is behaving in this way, simultaneously taking me out of the experience and dampening my enthusiasm in one fell swoop. If this is part of a pattern of similar behavior, I'm liable to believe that the DM isn't actually serious about running both roleplaying and gaming, which is (IMO inherently) the whole point of actually playing a roleplaying game. You can get better roleplay elsewhere if you want mostly pure roleplay. You can get better game elsewhere if you want mostly pure game. TTRPGs are the one place you can get both of those things united together in a way that is more than the sum of their parts.

So if I'm understanding you correctly - DMs may design magic items, maps, traps, rewards, lingering injuries, madnesses, diseases, poisons and monsters as that is all ok, but add anything to a spell list or feat list for NPCs and it dampens your enthusiasm because you consider it player-facing?
If the answer is yes, I'd find that very odd, and I guess we wouldn't make a good table fit.

In my Mystara game I have Comprehend Languages spell (attached) which has been retconned.

• There is a Glantrian version of the spell which increases the range from self to touch;
• There is an Alphatian version which uses a different spell component that increases the spell's duration;
• There is some hearsay that a Confuse Languages exists; and
• There is a more powerful 3rd level Comprehendere Linguam

Are you saying a DM cannot use any of the alternate versions because the players are not immediately aware of them? As a DM I consider this part of my world-building which I intend to gradually reveal to the players through play and let them reap the reward of their characters gaining this knowledge. I'm struggling to see how this is not fun?