D&D General When to know a rule?

[Hussar]

You are quite correct on this, but I would consider it common courtesy for the player to discuss the spells they'd like to include within the game considering it could affect world-building. It could help resolve certain questions before they arose in game - material components for instance etc.

I view this very much in the same way, when our table decided that the Eldritch Knight (after investigating the write-up of that class) would likely have a spellbook which allowed him to swap out spells and how long that would take. We needed to understand how the class would work in our world despite the 5e PHB being thin on the ground with regards to those details.

Oh, of course. And that's been my point. No DM in the world would ever allow a player to do that. Zero chance. And it's 100% reasonable too. I certainly wouldn't let a player bring in a new spell sight unseen. Of course not.

But, that's my point. We wouldn't dream of letting a player do this, but, the OP expects the players to be perfectly fine with the DM bringing in five HUNDRED spells into the game, sight unseen and then refuses to allow the players to see the spells before they are used in the game.

You do see where my problem with this is, right?

 

[Hussar]

I think we’re at the point in the discussion where you’re saying more about yourself than you are other people.

It’s a valid way of kicking off a plot hook despite whatever visceral reaction you might have to it. Own the idea that it’s just not for you.

What plot hook though? The players are not permitted any information. That's the point. They cannot even learn about the "dwarven armor" until they meet someone wearing/selling it. That's been the setup from the beginning of this thread. That the players are absolutely forbidden to know anything, any information whatsoever, about the new elements until such time as they are presented in game.

So, there is no "plot hook". There cannot be. The players must not know any information before whatever this new element is, is brought out in the game. So there is no "rumours of dwarven armor". The very first time they see this "dwarven armor" is when it's either being worn by a baddie, or someone is trying to sell it to them. And, if it's a spell, then it will only be seen in the hands of NPC's.

 

[Corinnguard]

When I gain a level in a casting class, I automatically gain new spells known. No research. No cost. They either just poof into my brain, my patron teaches them to me, they get written somehow into my spell book, or, if I'm a divine caster, I know all of them from the get go.

Learning new spells should not be done through osmosis, it should be result of your character actively researching them, swapping notes with a fellow spellcaster in your downtime, finding spells as treasure, and using your opponents (and maybe even your own teammates) as test subjects.

Poof into your brain? From where exactly? Spells certainly do not come into existence out of nothing. Some agency has to create them, and that agency ought to be you, another spellcaster, a deity or a patron.

Your patron teaches them to you with no strings attached? Pro quid quo. You patron will probably ask your warlock to do something in return before they hand a new spell over.

As for being written into your spellbook, this depends on who is doing the writing.

As for clerics, it's another pro quid quo thing. How many deities are willing to donate you their power without something in return?

 

[TiQuinn]

What plot hook though? The players are not permitted any information. That's the point. They cannot even learn about the "dwarven armor" until they meet someone wearing/selling it. That's been the setup from the beginning of this thread. That the players are absolutely forbidden to know anything, any information whatsoever, about the new elements until such time as they are presented in game.

There is a broader conversation that many people are having about the concept and then there’s the very strange, “not passing the smell test” points being made by two specific people.

 

[mamba]

When I gain a level in a casting class, I automatically gain new spells known. No research. No cost.

out of the spells in the PHB, you cannot just say ‘I now learn Hussars’s Masterful Mind Meld, and it does the following…’

You cannot gain a spell you have never even heard of, and I see no reason why you would be familiar enough with all spells to gain them

So, if there are 500 new spells in the game world, any divine spells would be known by all divine casters. And, any arcane caster could add them to their spells known automatically.

based on what are they automatically known?

 

[AnotherGuy]

@MichaelSomething I think best voices the right response to the OP (post #5). I cannot stress this enough.

One could easily view the 5,000 spells as 5,000 monster abilities for argument's sake and tables generally give the DM leeway to redesign monsters. My table certainly does. And it is within the spirit of the game for the DM to create something and then reward the players with it - magic items, companions and ofcourse spells.

I will say @Hussar that I do agree that designing as much as 5,000 spells - you're likely to make errors - balancing or otherwise. I mean even the entire WotC team has made such errors with feats and classes. Their encounter challenge alone reflects some of the problems with their math.

But let us be fair, the players are not entitled to know opponents' abilities before they face them. Why are we having such a problem with this? Is it the quantity of new spells? Would it be more acceptable if the OP designed only 2 per session and then used them?

If the magic was eventually available to the players afterwards, through the in-game fiction I personally would have no problem with that, particularly if I trusted my DM. But it goes back to @MichaelSomething's comment. That may also be my bias, because as a fellow DM, I enjoy the world-building aspect of the game - even when I'm a player. So I'd be keen to see such spells in action, by who and eventually claim them as my own. It is about one's relationship with one's DM.

 

[mamba]

The very first time they see this "dwarven armor" is when it's either being worn by a baddie, or someone is trying to sell it to them.

and? This never happens with magic items? You never have any custom ones? The players always know what they can do from seeing them?

 

[TiQuinn]

I will say @Hussar that I do agree that designing as much as 5,000 spells - you're likely to make errors - balancing or otherwise. I mean even the entire WotC team has made such errors with feats and classes. Their encounter challenge alone reflects some of the problems with their math.

Exactly. It feels like people are defending a legit approach to world building and seeding plot hooks against an irrational response but at the same time pointing out the OP may not be doing it well either.

 

[Hussar]

out of the spells in the PHB, you cannot just say ‘I now learn Hussars’s Masterful Mind Meld, and it does the following…’

You cannot gain a spell you have never even heard of, and I see no reason why you would be familiar enough with all spells to gain them


based on what are they automatically known?

Based on the PHB? It does say, right there, in black and white, when I gain a level, I gain spells known. Wizards automatically get two new spells in their spell book. There's no "quid pro quo" there's no const. There's nothing. I get whatever level appropriate spell my little heart wants.

I'm kinda baffled how this is even a discussion? Do casters in your game not get access to new spells when they level up?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Why are we having such a problem with this?

Because it, in my opinion, reflects poorly on the DM. It makes them seem petty at best, and malicious at worst. It doesn't inspire my eagerness to engage, but instead makes me question why this person is behaving in this way, simultaneously taking me out of the experience and dampening my enthusiasm in one fell swoop. If this is part of a pattern of similar behavior, I'm liable to believe that the DM isn't actually serious about running both roleplaying and gaming, which is (IMO inherently) the whole point of actually playing a roleplaying game. You can get better roleplay elsewhere if you want mostly pure roleplay. You can get better game elsewhere if you want mostly pure game. TTRPGs are the one place you can get both of those things united together in a way that is more than the sum of their parts.