What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Jack Daniel]

Bring back AD&D in print (both 1st and 2nd), as well as the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.

Since that's not going to happen, we probably ought to be saying, "Make sure that 5th edition feels (and plays) more like these old editions than 4th does." It could happen: 3e did a lot of hearkening back to 1e, flavor-wise, to "undo" what many older gamers saw as mistakes made in 2e. 3e brought back the demons and devils, the monks and half-orcs, the assassins and barbarians.

Of course 2nd edition wasn't a bad game. (It's certainly one of my favorite editions.) But it nevertheless has this unsavory reputation as the watered-down, corporate-shill, Gygax-booting, kiddie-cleanup of 1e. Entirely unjustified IMO, but that was the perception. And 3e handily addressed most of those (shallow and superficial) "mistakes." The train of thought apparently went something like this: "If there are demons and devils back in the MM, the problems are solved and all is forgiven."

So, looking forward to the inevitable 5th edition, what can we count on? WotC created 3e to respond to the problems that people had with 2e (the aforementioned flavor issues being only a small part of that, compared with the major notion that 2e was dated, clunky, and arbitrary, and that 3e would therefore need things like a universal task-res mechanic and ascending AC to bring it up to date). Likewise, 4e seemed at least initially motivated by addressing the problems seen with 3e (bloat, complexity, prep-time, and game imbalance outside of the "sweet spot"). Thus, we can at least expect that the future designers of 5th edition will bend over backwards to correct whatever superficial problems are most vocally attributed to 4th edition (and when the PR campaign comes, they'll naturally go out of their way to explain their goals and demonstrate how they've met them).

Therefore, and I mean this in all seriousness, it's probably the shrillest set of voices on message boards like this one which will be heard and acknowledged when the time comes to create and release 5th edition. So if you want to influence the future of the game, don't clamor for PDFs, because that's pointless. Don't ask for nostalgic releases of out of print editions; it's a pipe-dream. Instead, be clear about why 4th edition doesn't satisfy. Don't quit discussing the relative merits of the various editions of the game. Don't be intimidated into silence at the first alarmist cry of "edition war!" It's the only way we'll ever see a new edition of the game that draws upon all the best aspects of its predecessors.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Actually all I said was that if you target 35% of the market and I target 65%, all other things being equal, I'll make more money. The teen market is always held forth as being more desireable than the older market and I simply question that analysis. Teens may have buying power, but they are never the primary buying power in almost any market.

You won't make more money in the long run. That's why (mostly) everyone markets to youth, and why getting old sucks.

 

[Doug McCrae]

we probably ought to be saying, "Make sure that 5th edition feels (and plays) more like these old editions than 4th does."

In many ways, 4e hearkens back to older editions. Gamist, like 1e and OD&D rather than simulationist - 3e - or dramatist - 2e. Highly focused, like OD&D. Simpler rules than 3e. Multiclassing tightened. Monsters built using different rules than PCs. Minimal fluff in descriptions, like 1e. 3e magic item Xmas tree toned down. Strong emphasis on miniatures, like OD&D, or even Chainmail. (Now that's old school!)

 

[UniversalMonster]

So if you want to influence the future of the game, don't clamor for PDFs, because that's pointless. Don't ask for nostalgic releases of out of print editions; it's a pipe-dream. Instead, be clear about why 4th edition doesn't satisfy. Don't quit discussing the relative merits of the various editions of the game. Don't be intimidated into silence at the first alarmist cry of "edition war!" It's the only way we'll ever see a new edition of the game that draws upon all the best aspects of its predecessors.

I feel bad saying this.

But what if 4th Edition does satisfy and has an enthusiastic and appreciative audience? (it does) What if it already draws upon the best aspects of it's predecessors and leaves the other stuff behind because that other stuff isn't all that great? (opinions here, but.. yes I think it does).

That's the real issue. And this isn't about long time players. I've been playing D&D continuously since 1978. I played D&D3 and 3.5 weekly for the entire run of the game. (I think I may have missed a couple of holidays in there).

What if 4th Edition is the greatest version of the game that has ever been published. I know I think it is.

The reality is: the clock is never going backwards. Never. Never ever.

There isn't going to be a 5th edition that looks anything like what the self-nominated non-customers want it to look like because they have defined themselves out of the equation. And nobody is going to bend over backwards to listen to the clamor of the avowed non-customer or the bitter ex-customer when there's an easy to deal with fan community readily available to cater to. If it changes at all, any new edition will look like 4th Edition, but with changes that actual 4th edition players have wanted or will be delighted by. Or it will incorporate more changes that they think will appeal to new players. But as far as "nods to older edition fans"? I doubt there will be any.

I do agree that there will be no older edition PDFs. There will be no re-releases of AD&D2e or 1e or the Cyclopedia. That's just crazy. Why would they do that?

 

[pawsplay]

I do agree that there will be no older edition PDFs. There will be no re-releases of AD&D2e or 1e or the Cyclopedia. That's just crazy. Why would they do that?

Why does Aerosmith keep selling their old albums?

 

[Wicht]

I do agree that there will be no older edition PDFs. There will be no re-releases of AD&D2e or 1e or the Cyclopedia. That's just crazy. Why would they do that?

Why does Hasbro release a[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Library-Monopoly-Vintage-Book-Game/dp/B00285Q0R2"] monopoly board set [/ame]which hearkens back to the original? Or a [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Library-Scrabble-Vintage-Book-Game/dp/B00285IE58/ref=pd_sim_t_2]Scrabble board?[/ame] Or [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Risk-Vintage-Wood-Book-Edition/dp/B00285LV1C/ref=pd_sim_t_2"]Risk?[/ame] Or [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Hasbro-Clue-Vintage-Wood-Book/dp/B00285GXKG/ref=pd_sim_t_4"]Clue?[/ame]

Someone at Hasbro must believe that Nostalgia has value in a product. Not to mention thats just the vintage bookshelf editions of these games. They also have a Nostalgia line of the same games for which they charge 4-5 times as much.

 

[El Mahdi]

Why does Aerosmith keep selling their old albums?

Because they ROCK! Just like D&D ROCKS!

The only thing cooler would be playing D&D with Aerosmith...which might just ROCK more than mortal man can handle.

 

[Jack99]

I may not play 4E, but it is D&D...and Man, I love D&D

I couldn't xp you, so I am quoting instead. Because I too love D&D!!!!

I would suggest that most people wouldn't consider it worth it. And the "goodwill" you create by publishing those adventures is nice, but unfortunately you lose the goodwill of the 4E customers who are losing the 4E content you sacrifice to put in the older edition ...

Yep

Limited ressources is the key here, as someone else said.

I feel bad saying this.

Don't feel bad!!

But what if 4th Edition does satisfy and has an enthusiastic and appreciative audience? (it does) What if it already draws upon the best aspects of it's predecessors and leaves the other stuff behind because that other stuff isn't all that great? (opinions here, but.. yes I think it does).

I agree.

That's the real issue. And this isn't about long time players. I've been playing D&D continuously since 1978. I played D&D3 and 3.5 weekly for the entire run of the game. (I think I may have missed a couple of holidays in there).

Yes, yes and yes. It's a myth that it's primarily the old players who have been there since the beginning that doesn't like 4e. Lots of people who started with 3.x seem to fall in the dislike 4e category as well.

What if 4th Edition is the greatest version of the game that has ever been published. I know I think it is.

Aaaaaand one last quote just because I happen to agree wholeheartedly

 

[UniversalMonster]

Why does Hasbro release a monopoly board set which hearkens back to the original? Or a Scrabble board? Or Risk? Or Clue?

Someone at Hasbro must believe that Nostalgia has value in a product.

Link to this post and get back to me in 8 years and we'll see which one of us is right, then. Does that seem fair?

 

[Umbran]

Why does Aerosmith keep selling their old albums?

For about the same reason game authors don't do concert tours - because listening to music is not very analogous to playing RPGs, so the business issues aren't the same.