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What is, in your opinion, the single WORST RPG ever made, and why is it so bad?

Celebrim

Legend
Every thread that goes on long enough ... eventually becomes a debate about D&D.

Yeah, I'm dropping out of it though because I'd much rather get back to what I think is really the core topic of the thread - what constitutes a good or bad mechanic. The D&D discussion to me is interesting primarily because for the first 15 or so years of this debate about what made a mechanic good or bad, the standard was "realistic" and the litmus test for that was whether the mechanic intuitively emulated how the speaker thought about the real world. The real world had none of the D&D-isms and so everything about D&D was bad and all D&D mechanics were bad. But that early insight into what was meant by good design turned out to be naive not just about the impact realism would have on a game if added, but also on whether or not intuitive process simulation was itself realistic.

Hit points aren't an objectively bad mechanic just because they lack realism. They are a mechanic that accomplishes certain purposes and makes certain tradeoffs - "realism" being one of them. It turns out that the advantages that they offer are so great that it's very difficult to get rid of them.

But I do think that there are objectively bad mechanics.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
...and also Yoko Ono's Grapefruit predates dnd by a decade. Unless you are willing to argue that this
View attachment 343664
is not a roleplaying game.
That's not a role-playing game.

Obviously, this will come down to definition nitpickery, and it's no coincidence that there are entire books dedicated to this question (see Jon Peterson's The Elusive Shift). That said, most use of the term "role-playing game" in the popular vernacular (as I've seen it) is typically understood to include the following characteristics:
  • The game is structured with the expectation that players will run a single character across multiple sessions.
  • That character will improve, within the context of the game's mechanical expression(s), over time.
  • That there is a referee who oversees and arbitrates play.
  • That the game's mechanics include a method of task/conflict resolution.
In other words, there's more to a "role-playing game" than a game in which you simply play a role. The original Super Mario Bros. is a game, and you play the role of Mario, but it's not what anyone would call a role-playing game.

Now, there are plenty of instances of games that operate under the label of RPGs which experiment with tweaking one or more of these, such as being designed for single-session play only, or doing away with a referee, etc. But for the most part, contemporary references to what constitute an RPG tends to involve the above points; Yoko Ono's game, by contrast, has virtually none of them, and so isn't what most people think of when they think of a role-playing game.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
It's not because it was first or it's just because that's what people know. It's because it's good solid organic design. It's the fiddly bits that aren't well thought out. The core of D&D is amazing.
Digressing here . . .
Hit points, for example. Classes. Levels. Separate attack rolls for hit and damage where damage is a bounded random number.
. . . but this might help explain why my game is so bad (post 14):

- it doesn't use hit points. But I'm not sure that hit points are amazing, since their primary purpose is counting damage down from a maximum (full health number), to zero. The subtraction element, of reducing hit points when damage occurs, seems a little more natural in the face of using subtraction to find a to-hit number (yay THAC0), but it's otherwise out of place in games that focus on addition. Why not just add damage - the beginning of the hit point process - and compare it to the full health number?

- it doesn't use classes. But I'm not sure that classes are amazing, because why does D&D need so many of them, with sub-classes, prestige classes, NPC classes, dual-classes, and multi-classes? With so many options, wouldn't features a la carte be better?

- it doesn't require a random number for hit or damage rolls. But I'm not sure that random rolls are amazing. Neither is D&D sure, which is why it has implemented take 10, take 20, passive checks, and average damage results for monsters.

I guess we'll agree that levels are good, solid, organic design.
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
Thinking about this topic more, it is really hard to think of recent games that could qualify for this in the same way as some early games, or games when desktop publishing first let everyone design RPGs were bad.

To me the thing that keeps most modern RPGs from being that horrible is that you can actually play them. Once we moved to having one consistent mechanic for actions, that really helped things out. Early games often had disconnected mechanics where you might not even know how to handle some part of game play. If you have a coherent character mechanic, and a resolution mechanic that allows them to do something, you can really play a game. There are early RPGs that don't get over that bar.

On my journeys through other gaming social media, I remember there's a guy who picks up the rights to old games and then releases them in PDF form. I wish I could remember the company, but I found some of the stuff he's found and acquired really fascinating. I know some of you move in those same circles, so maybe someone with a better memory or search skills can share it.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
On my journeys through other gaming social media, I remember there's a guy who picks up the rights to old games and then releases them in PDF form. I wish I could remember the company, but I found some of the stuff he's found and acquired really fascinating. I know some of you move in those same circles, so maybe someone with a better memory or search skills can share it.
Sounds like Precis Intermedia, I'd wager.
 


Celebrim

Legend
But I'm not sure that hit points are amazing, since their primary purpose is counting damage down from a maximum (full health number), to zero.

Hit points are amazing, and that's not their primary purpose. Hit points survive because what they do is make encounter design more predictable. Let's look at a game like Slay the Spire which has hit points and classes but not levels. Both hit points and classes here are the core mechanic not only for measuring the skill of play, but also for allowing the designer to manage the balance of the game in such a way that he can control the challenge and play test the game.

This works well because of the hit points ablative nature. Game play doesn't change until you run out of hit points. (With a very few exceptions, like there is a relic/feat that gives you a bonus to damage if you are below half health, and another that gives you a bonus to healing if you are below half health, but note that's anti-realistic. There is no death spiral here.) Packetizing the penalties in the game to something like hit points let you tweak the challenge each round* of combat represents. Indeed, the core mechanic of the game is you usually know ahead of time exactly how much protection you need because of how much damage you are facing and have to manage your turn accordingly. Deep strategy involves sacrificing hit points as a resource now to gain advantage later, either killing the enemy earlier (many of them scale in power over time) or spending resources to scale up in power yourself. But you have to horde hit points as well, because you lose when you run out.

You can't do that sort of design with a "realistic" wound system where you might randomly take a "head shot" and be instantly killed from any hit. That's why you don't see game designers implementing wound track systems very often because it leads to random deaths where you take control away from the player. What hit points give the player is control. In fact in RPG terms they are quantitized plot protection. You have the ability to shrug off hits and keeping going until you run out. And because the number of hits you can take is predictable and because your performance over time is usually predictable, it's easy to design a challenge or series of challenges in such a way that the player is slightly advantage and can maximize or lose that advantage through thoughtful or thoughtless play. And then because hit points mitigate against bad luck, it's a lot easier to play test your assumptions that it would be with any other system. And players enjoy it because they feel in control and can make thoughtful decisions in a way that you can't if every single attack threatens any possible result.

(*Turn based!)

Classses are the same thing. They allow the designer to control what's possible. This makes play testing a lot easier than if players could mix and match and create anything they wanted. You'd have to test all sorts of things to find out if there was some combination with unexpected emergent properties. Classes limit choices down to something designers can manage, while at the same time doing other things like forcing players to go broad rather than deep. You can predict better that a player will have no more than X at a given time, while having at least this much Y. And again, this makes encounter design so much easier compared with freeform systems. It also makes resource creation a lot easier if you are like a video game maker who has to create models and images and intellectual property if you have constraints on what the player is playing.

But I'm not sure that classes are amazing, because why does D&D need so many of them, with sub-classes, prestige classes, NPC classes, dual-classes, and multi-classes? With so many options, wouldn't features a la carte be better?

Would it? I mean this can lead into questions of what the tradeoffs are, and what objectively makes a class design good or bad, but the fact that classes can be designed badly doesn't prove that they are a bad mechanic.

I guess we'll agree that levels are good, solid, organic design.

They aren't always necessary though. Levels accomplish a purpose. In Slay the Spire you have classes but not levels. Character advancement is accomplished in different ways. Similarly, Vampire Survivor has classes and levels to manage the tactical level play of the game, but at the strategic level advancement of the player is managed in a more freeform manner by allowing you to buy the boons you want with a separate metacurrency.
 

hgjertsen

Explorer
I think one mechanic I think only degrades the experience when removed is a lack of die rolls to adjudicate outcomes. Part of the fun of the mechanical elements of an RPG system is mitigating the range of possible rolls through your selection of character options but it is that uncertainty, and the attempts to mitigate it, that makes the game fun.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Thought of another one!
View attachment 343658

Loved the setting and the imaginative ideas, hated the ultra-simple mechanics.
Personally, I like the system quite a bit, but that's an "each to their own" thing. My problem with Numenera is that's a game of exploration and discovery and but has next to no rules for it. As it stands, it's practically just a D&D clone--see a monster (most of which have the motivation of "hungers for blood" or something similar), kill it, take their stuff. Only instead of gold pieces you get shins.

Take Level Up, which has regions and exploration challenges. Numenera should have had something like that. The game was begging for something like that. Heck, they'd be even simpler in that system because they'd get boiled down to a single number. But no. It makes me want to figure out how to convert those regions and exploration challenges into Cypher System, except that I don't know if I'll ever run a game in it.
 

The Soloist

Adventurer
Powers & Perils by Avalon Hill is one of the games I wanted to love but it was a math and abbreviation nightmare.

wiki: "In a retrospective review in the January 1996 edition of Dragon, Swan recalled that Powers & Perils had been the second-worst game he'd ever played, calling it an "incomprehensible role-playing game."
 

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