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D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

pemerton

Legend
And it should not, a skill can be used over and over throughout a day. A spell (other than those cursed cantrips) is a resource.
How many times per day is the skill actually going to be used? How many times per day does a mid-to-high level spell caster run out of the slots they need to do effective things? Particularly in a context where some spell casters can regulate their own recovery rate? (Eg via tiny huts and the like.)

The question for game balance isn't about counterfactuals in the fiction ("They could do it all day") but about the rate at which abilities are deployed at the table, in the game.

When I rebalanced Rolemaster for a second long campaign, around 1998, the result was a game in which a nova-ing caster was about on a par with a warrior. This didn't cause any imbalance in favour of warriors, despite the fact that many of their abilities are "at will", because in a party game the rest cycle is shared and the casters still had access to abilities (eg shape change, or flight) that the warriors simply lacked.
 

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Scribe

Legend
How many times per day is the skill actually going to be used? How many times per day does a mid-to-high level spell caster run out of the slots they need to do effective things? Particularly in a context where some spell casters can regulate their own recovery rate? (Eg via tiny huts and the like.)
A great question, and one of the design assumptions that needs to be made.

4 encounters? 8 encounters? How much NPC engagement is present?

I agree, that without that pressure to consume/conserve resources things go off the rails potentially, and its a consideration that needs to be made, communicated, and controlled.
 


Kurotowa

Legend
Given: There is an option for a mundane fighter class. Mundane is defined as "no inherent magical ability built into the core class". "Magical ability" excludes being better at something a normal person can do (so jumping, strength, etc. are all on the table), but does include reality-bending supernatural effects, such as illusions, evocation, regeneration, teleporting, conjuration, etc.
I think this is the wrong vector to approach it from. Trying to build a mundane warrior that lacks all magical ability is self-defeating and at odds with historical legends. Hercules had the strength to redirect rivers. Siegfried and Achilles had impenetrable skin. Magical boons, special inheritances, and abilities so great they might as well be superhuman were standard.

I'd say it's better to break it down as internal versus external abilities. Wizards and Clerics have external magic, where they wave their hands and say the words and magic things happen to other people or in the world. Internal magic would be running so fast you can cross water, or being so tough your wounds heal in an eyeblink, or being so strong you can lift houses, or being so good with a sword you can cut spells and arrows out of the air.

All of those things are entirely in the milieu of the exceptional warrior, and in D&D at least half of them would reference spell effects because that's where the rules for "something special happens" are located. Does it really make a difference if the ability text was replicated in a "totally not a spell" context? Trying to pare down Fighters to an artificial standard of mundanity is setting up an artificial dichotomy between those who use magic and those who don't.

ETA: A good place to start would be asking, "What influences are we trying to emulate here?" D&D has always been built on a mountain of novels, movies, and myths with players wanting characters similar to those that inspired them. Well, who are these "mundane" Fighters we're trying to emulate in this case? Narrowing it down to clear examples would make this a lot easier.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
It would be interesting to see the average increase in hp for common monster types across various types and power levels of monster across editions. Unfortunately I lack the time to undertake such a task.
Here's a few snapshots I have handy...

Goblin (OD&D) 1d6 (3)
Goblin (AD&D) 1d8-1, i.e. 1-7 (4)
Goblin (3rd/d20) 1d8+1 (5)
Goblin Blackblade (4th) (25)
Goblin (5th) 2d6 (7)

Goblins have about doubled in HP since they were introduced, leaving aside anomalous 4th ed

EDIT: Gnoll (OD&D) 1+1 or 2 (4 or 7)
Gnoll (AD&D) 2d8 (9)
Gnoll (3rd/d20) 2d8+2 (11)
Gnoll Huntmaster (4th) 50
Gnoll (5th) 5d8 (22)

Gnolls have 2-3 times their HP since they were introduced

Ogre (OD&D) 4d6+1 (15)
Ogre (AD&D) 4d8+1 (19)
Ogre (3rd/d20) 4d8+11 (29)
Ogre Savage (4th) (111)
Ogre (5th) 7d10+21 (59)

Ogres have about 3-4 times their HP since they were introduced

Chimera (OD&D) 9d6 (31)
Chimera (AD&D) 9d8 (40)
Chimera (3rd/d20) 9d10+27 (76)
Chimera (4th) (366)
Chimera (5th) 12d10+48 (114)

Chimeras have about 3 times their HP since they were introduced

EDIT: One of the questions I like to ask is "How many rounds would it take a 1st level warrior dealing ~7.5 avg damage (e.g. longsword one-handed 16 Strength = 1d8+3) to kill the monster?" For example, in 5th edition, that's 1 round for a goblin, 3 rounds for a gnoll, 8 rounds for an ogre, and ~15 rounds for a chimera.
 
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Kurotowa

Legend
I disagree. And since this is a + thread on how to create a mundane fighter, making a comment about how that's wrong probably belongs in a different thread.
Edit: Nevermind. This is, indeed, a Plus thread, and I obviously don't vibe with it. Have fun, folks.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I wonder how much of a Fighter's problems are in the form of bad Monster design? Monster HP bloat affects many things negatively on the player side.
Not too much, IDT, there can be more to combat than the race to 0hp, and hp are relative.
For instance, 4e fighters were defender role, and had class features to support that, while they might kill a monster in 4 rounds that an optimized striker could kill in 2, they could hold that monster's attention, keeping it off their allies, all 4 of those rounds, while the striker might bloody the same monster in one, and then it's past them, murdering an ally. Roles. 🤷‍♂️
5e fighters do plenty of damage relative to other classes and to monster hp, particularly on the round they use Action Surge and at the levels they get a new Extra Attack, like 5 and 11, they're like the 4e strikers that way - and also in that it's about all they do.

It would be interesting to see the average increase in hp for common monster types across various types and power levels of monster across editions. Unfortunately I lack the time to undertake such a task.
Goblin (3rd/d20) 1d8+1 (5)
Goblin Blackblade (4th) (25)
Gnoll (3rd/d20) 2d8+2 (11)
Gnoll Huntmaster (4th) 50
Ogre (3rd/d20) 4d8+11 (29)
Ogre Savage (4th) (111)
TBF, in 3e, you could add warrior (or other class) levels to any humanoid monster to beef it up to whatever hp total you felt like, tho it also upped their BAB &c...
Also, TBF, in 4e there were Goblins, Gnolls, Ogres - and most other humanoids, and many other monsters - that had 1 hp.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I feel like this is one that isn't used enough. Through sheer willpower, a high level non-magical fighter, should be able to break conditions, exhaustion, and spells that target them.
It's something I'm leaning pretty heavily on in my current project (GEAS). Conditions can really suck, and it seems glaringly obvious to me that a battle-hardened warrior can end many of those through willpower.

For example, all warriors get the following (for context, every time you get an XP point, you can buy a trait that is in your circle or lower. Think of circles at tiers of play):

Warrior Traits
Armor Proficiency: Light, medium, and heavy armor.
Core Die: d10
Starting Skills: Choose any two ability subcategories.
Weapon Proficiency: All weapons.
Action Points: You begin with a pool of 6 AP.

Starting Traits:
Hold the Line: You can make one opportunity attack for each creature triggering it this round by spending 5 vigor. This does not count as using your response.
Martial Expert: You may use Combination Maneuvers as described in the Martial Maneuvers section.
Winded: While in the winded status, you recover twice the vitality you normally would when a spell, ability, or effect causes you to recover vitality.
Stances: For 4 AP, you adopt a stance that lasts until combat ends or you choose to spend 4 AP to change the stance.
  • Defensive Stance: +1 DEF PD and +1 DR while stance is active.
  • Offensive Stance: +1 CD to BDP bonus with weapons or natural attacks while stance is active.
  • Tactical Stance: +2 AP while this stance is active.
Weapon Training: Gain +1 PD when attacking with weapons or natural attacks.

Circle 1 Traits:
Vitality: Increase your vitality by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Vigor: Increase your vigor by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Action Point: Increase your maximum AP pool by 2.

Circle 2 Traits:
Vitality: Increase your vitality by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Vigor: Increase your vigor by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Ability: Increase one of your abilities by 1.
Battle Fortitude: Recover an additional 2 CD BDP of vitality after completing a rest (up to your maximum).

Circle 3 Traits:
Vitality: Increase your vitality by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Vigor: Increase your vigor by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Cannon Fodder. Any opponent you hit with an attack that has a MC of 1M or less is brought to zero vitality, regardless of damage. Attacks against these creatures have the AP cost reduced to 1.
Weapon Training: Gain +1 PD bonus when attacking with weapons or natural attacks.
Action Point: Increase your maximum AP pool by 2.

Circle 4 Traits:
Vitality: Increase your vitality by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Vigor: Increase your vigor by +1 CD. You may select this up to three times in this Circle.
Ability: Increase one of your abilities by 1.
Weapon Mastery: Gain a +2 CD bonus to your WDP when attacking unarmed or with weapons.
Cannon Fodder. Any opponent you hit with an attack that has a MC of 1H or less is brought to zero vitality, regardless of damage. Attacks against these creatures have the AP cost reduced to 1.

And the Mercenary Specialty (subclass of warrior):

Circle 1 Traits
Weapon Specialization: You are able to utilize the Weapon Traits feature from weapons.
Shield Mastery: Add your shield DEF as a PD bonus to your ability check Challenge Rolls to resist area-of-effect spells/attacks. I.e., if your shield has a DEF rating of +2 PD, you add 2 PD to your Challenge Rolls when called to resist an area of effect attack, such as a dragon’s breath or flame explosion spell.
Training: Gain a +1 PD bonus to any ability skill check.
Sniper: Gain a +1 CD bonus to your BDP when attacking with ranged weapons.
Suck It Up: Use a response action (2 AP) to recover 2 CD of vigor. You may use this once per breather.

Circle 2 Traits
Protection: As a response (1 AP) to an ally within 5 feet of you being attacked, spend 3 vigor and add your DEF PD bonus from your shield to that ally’s DEF PD until the start of your next turn.
Armor Mastery: Gain a +1 bonus to your DEF PD when wearing armor.
Precise Strike: As a response (1 AP) to a successful attack of yours landing, spend up to 1 CD vigor to inflict an extra amount of damage equaling the amount of vigor spent.
Riposte: As a response (1 AP) to getting melee attacked, spend 5 vigor to make one melee attack at the creature that successfully hit you.
Suck It Up II: Amount recovered increases to 2 CD + 2 CD.

Circle 3 Traits
Back In The Fight: As a response (3 AP), spend 5 vigor and end one negative status affecting you.
Sacrifice: As a response (1 AP) to an ally within 5 feet being attacked, spend 5 vigor and step in the way of an attack targeting that ally. Move that attack to yourself.
Training: Gain an additional +1 PD bonus to any ability skill check.
Combat Mastery: Gain a +2 PD bonus when attempting a Martial maneuver or resisting a Martial maneuver.
Robust: If at the start of your turn you are in the winded status and do not have any desperation points, grant yourself a desperation point.

Circle 4 Traits
Long Reach: The reach of your weapons increases by 5 feet. If it is ranged, add 50% distance.
Whirlwind: Spend 6 AP to either attack every creature within 5 feet of you with a chosen melee weaopn, or attack each creature in a 5-foot radius for ranged attacks provided you have enough ammunition to do so.
Precision Strike: As a response (1 AP) to a successful attack of yours landing, spend 5 vigor to bypass any resistances or immunities the creature might have to your attack until the start of its next turn.
Imposing: Creatures are considered one size smaller when you use a trait or maneuver or item that is size limited. I.e., if you could grapple a large-sized or smaller creature previously, you can now grapple huge-sized or smaller creatures.
Immovable: You cannot be moved or pushed against your will. if you do not move during your turn, you gain a +2 DR bonus until the start of your next turn.

Epic Traits
Armor Master: You can wear armor comfortably, without any drawbacks from weight or encumbrance or extended wear. You also gain immunity to non-magical attacks.
Arms Master: You can apply the special traits from weapons on any successful attack roll, not just ones that have multiple successes.
Blurring Attacks: Spend 10 vigor. The AP cost of your weapons is reduced by 1 (minimum 1) until the end of your turn.
Staying Power: You may spend 5 XP to choose this trait multiple times. Each time you choose this trait, you gain 2 CD of vigor and vitality.
 

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