D&D 4E What do you want in 4E, defense and DR or straight AC?

[Irda Ranger]

Another thing that I think the DR system would address better than the AC system is the question of size categories.

I just can't wrap my brain around the concept of anything a human can do with his hands, or even a sword, being more than a paper cut to a dragon. It should hardly even count as damage. Ditto for the human commoner (4 HP) being killed by a couple housecats (1 damage).

I think a system where size categories grants DR & DR-piercing bonuses would make more sense here. With that involved, no more being killed by housecats or pixies (just scratches that sting), and no more killing dragons with swords that can't even punture its hide, let alone hitting any major arteries or internal organs.

This would make Dragons much less Disposable

Irda Ranger


B.othered A.bout D.isposable D.ragons

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

I don't want 4th edition. I've got over a thousand bucks invested in this one, and what with the OGL, I think publishers will be producing titles for it for a good, long time.

3.1 might be okay, if it doesn't render my present collection unuseable without lots of conversion, but 4th? No.

Sounds like you're someone who might feel some sympathy for those of us who still play the older editions

(Note: NOT an attempt at flamebaiting/threadjacking--just a friendly comment )

 

[Dinkeldog]

Sounds like you're someone who might feel some sympathy for those of us who still play the older editions

(Note: NOT an attempt at flamebaiting/threadjacking--just a friendly comment )

In 10 years or so, if 3E is collapsing under the weight of its own internal contradictions, I'll consider whether I welcome 4E.

 

[drothgery]

I think class-based defense bonuses are good for magic-item light games like Star Wars or Wheel of Time, but in D&D they'd cause problems. There's tons of magic in D&D that improves your AC by virtue of something other than an armor bonus. Add that to class defense, and BAB doesn't outrun defense high levels, which leads to very long combats (everyone has a lot of hit points and not much chance of hitting the other guy). Fighters and Paladins (and possibly Clerics) would presumably get Armor Compatability, which would exaggerate this even more.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Hell no. That's just more complexity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

Another thing that I think the DR system would address better than the AC system is the question of size categories.

I just can't wrap my brain around the concept of anything a human can do with his hands, or even a sword, being more than a paper cut to a dragon. It should hardly even count as damage. Ditto for the human commoner (4 HP) being killed by a couple housecats (1 damage).

I think a system where size categories grants DR & DR-piercing bonuses would make more sense here. With that involved, no more being killed by housecats or pixies (just scratches that sting), and no more killing dragons with swords that can't even punture its hide, let alone hitting any major arteries or internal organs.

This would make Dragons much less Disposable

B.othered A.bout D.isposable D.ragons

If we use logic as a base then a gargantuan dragon (akin to the male from Reign of Fire) should not be injured by standard arrows or swords. In fact I estimate its armour would even be resistant to 25mm cannon, it would probably take a number of 50mm shots or a point blank 100mm tank shell to drop.

Lets assume for a moment that hit points are the square root of the mass (in lbs).

eg.
30lb small halfling = 5hp
200lb medium size human = 14hp
1600lb large giant = 40hp
12,800lb huge titan (or large iron golem) = 113hp
204,800lb gargantuan dragon = 452hp

We know an M16 can kill a human on a critical hit; likewise we know a kevlar vest will probably stop a 5.56mm round.

So its reasonable to assume a 5.56mm round will deal about 2d8 damage and a kevlar vest will stop about 14 points.

If we scale all those up:

Missile Weapons.

5.56mm = 2d8
12.7mm sniper rifle = 4d10
25mm cannon = 11d10
50mm cannon = 32d10
100mm tank shell = 90d10
200mm destroyer shell = 256d10
400mm battleship shell = 724d10

Heavy Armour.

Medium Body Armour = DR 14/-
Large Body Armour = DR 40/-
Huge Body Armour = DR 110/-
Gargantuan Body Armour = DR320/-
Gargantuan Dragon* = DR452/-

*If we assume the dragons scales are as effective as Kevlar. Though a dragons scaly hide is probably (pound for pound) akin to medium armour. So Gargantuan Dragon = DR226/-

Medium Armour could be considered half as effective.
Light Armour could be considered one quarter as effective.

This revision necessitates you apply proper damage and strength modifiers to creatures.

If a medium size claw attack deals 1d6 then a gargantuan dragons claw will deal about 32d6.

Likewise if the typical human strength is 9-10 then the typical (gargantuan) dragons strength will be about 300 (+145 damage*).

*Only damage, you do not gain a bonus to attack.

Okay so how does a human (in a fantasy setting) hurt a gargantuan dragon with 452hp and Damage Reduction 226/-...

- A giant ballista (as in a certain Ray Harryhausen movie: the Seventh Voyage of Sinbad). If a medium X-bow (3ft.) deals 1d10 and reduces DR to one quarter (DR 56/-). Then a 24ft. version would deal about 22d10 a 48ft. version about 63d10 (like the one they use in the movie).

- An explosion (as in both Dragonslayer and Reign of Fire): the dragon in dragonslayer was probably on huge in terms of size, though she took the explosion on the outside and the gargantuan dragon (in Reign of Fire) swallowed his.

Huge Dragon (from Dragonslayer) 160hp, DR 80/-
Gargantuan Dragon (from Reign of Fire) 452hp, DR 226/-

Exterior explosion 2 Kg of TNT = 25d10 with no Reflex save for half since it was carrying the exploding wizard; enough to cause the dragon serious damage, though it probably didn't die until it hit the ground.

Interior explosion 250g of TNT = 8d10 (though dragon took 70d10 with no Damage Reduction and no Reflex save for half due to the grenade exploding inside it.

 

[Vargo]

Borrowing from GURPS and Wizard's Crown...

Okay, most people here know what GURPS is, but before GURPS there was Wizard's Crown, a computer-based tactical combat game with fantasy trappings. Kind of an early version of the Gold Box games, from the same company.

In The Wizard's Crown, armor had defense ratings - Cut, Crush, and Impale (might have been Thrust) - which varied based on the type of armor (chain was horrible against thrust) so that there were times when you would want to take advantage of a lower damage weapon with a better attack type for that particular target. The system suffered, unfortunately, because there was no way to discern what creatures were vulnerable to what attack types other than repeatedly bashing away on them thousands of times and drawing statistical comparisons.

GURPS took it the other way - armor had one rating (except for a couple special cases, such as chain mail), three attack types, and two attack styles. You could cut, crush, and impale - and you could either swing or thrust. Thrusting did less damage than swinging. Most cuts and crushes were swung, and most impales were thrusts - but impales did 2x damage when they got past armor, and cuts did 1.5x damage when they got past armor. Picks, which were swung impale weapons were fearsome indeed, but they could get stuck in the opponent, which was generally not a good thing. It also made daggers and their ilk great against non-armored opponents, but harder to use against armored opponents, which is as it should be. You could still do it, but it took some skill.

The GURPS system of damage has it's issues, but it's a lot easier to adjudicate than the Wizard's Crown idea - less special exceptions and less math at the actual time of rolling for damage.

And that's where the real problem is - any DR system adds a layer of complexity to the combat mechanisms. The current system is

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll damage
3. Record damage

A DR system is

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll damage
3. Subtract the appropriate DR
4. Record damage

Yeah, you sometimes have to do the DR thing in the current system, but it isn't a sure thing every time.

And yes, I would like a DR system combined with a WP/VP system - but I don't know if I would be playing D&D any more at that point...

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I don't need 4E to give me that... I already use a system that incorporates all that in it...

Skill Checks are against opposed rolls as well...

DCs for spells determined by a roll...

In fact, I've eliminated the "Base 10" completely.

 

[Cougar]

If you use defense and DR then how do your spells and special qualities of magic items like armors fit in?

 

[Theuderic]

I tried voting but yet again it is saying that my session is invalid this is the same thing that happpened when i tried to vote about the new halflings what the heck is going on?!