Uncanny Dodge and the Dodge bonus - Yes or No?

[fett527]

That made me laugh out loud. Kudos, sir, kudos.

Heh. Still makes me chuckle. "almost uncanny." I'll be grinning for a while, yet.

I second that. Big LOL!

 

[RigaMortus]

No loss in Dex = no loss from Dodge

7 to 1

 

[Darklone]

RAW over personal interpretation:

8 to 1.

 

[Coredump]

I understand the interpretation,and even like the logic used, but I don't think that is the way the rules are written

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses

So the next question is "What conditions make you lose your Dex bonus?"

"Hey Fighter A, what conditions make you lose your Dex bonus?"
"Uh.... when I am flatfooted, or attacked by an invis opponent, or help immobile, or grappling..."
"Well, you will also lose any Dodge benefits during those times also."
"damn"

"Hey Rogue B, what conditions make you lose your Dex bonus?"
"Why when I am held immobile, or grappling."
"Well, you will also lose your Dodge benefits during those times also."
"Yeppers, thats why I hate them."


Uncanny dodge 'redefines' what conditions make you lose your Dex benefit, it does not just give it back.

.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Precisely. The entire "giv[ing Dex bonus] back" concept is a pure construct that has no support in the rules. The rules are clear: Having uncanny dodge means that you are not denied your Dex bonus when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Since you lose dodge bonuses when you are denied your Dex bonus, and not under any other listed condition, and you are NOT denied your Dex bonus when you have uncanny dodge, you do not lose your dodge bonus. QED.

 

[Ourph]

Thanks everyone. I'll remember that next time I DM a 3rd edition game.

 

[woodelf]

Mobility: A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

"Is 'flat-footed' a condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)?"
"No. I'm a barbarian."
"Carry on, then."

-Hyp.

While i agree that's what it should be, i'm not convinced that it unambiguously states that in the literal reading of the rules. Mobility is unclearly defined, in this case. When it says "A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus..." does it mean specifically "A condition that makes your particular character, given whatever abilities she may have, lose her Dexterity bonus" or the more general "A condition that would make one lose one's Dexterity bonus"? If the former, i agree that someone with a Nifty that prevents losing Dex bonus also doesn't lose the Mobility bonus. If the latter, then "flat-footed" is a condition that makes one lose one's Dex bonus, and the fact that you don't lose your Dex bonus doesn't change the fact that you are in a situation where one loses one's Dex bonus, and thus the benefits of Mobility. I don't like this latter interpretation, but i think it is a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules as written.

 

[woodelf]

It's not just an opinion.

The PHB states that any situation that negates your Dex bonus also negates your Dodge bonuses. (Page 307)

Did the situation negate the character's Dex bonus? No, it did not.

Therefore, by the rules as written, they don't lose any Dodge bonus.

It's just that simple.

OK, let's try explaining it this way:
Option 1: X causes Y, which causes Z
Option 2: X causes Y & Z

X is "the situation"
Y is "Dex bonus to AC"
Z is "dodge bonus to AC"

So, if it is the negation of the Dex bonus that causes the negation of dodge bonuses, you are absolutely correct: (A) those who retain Dex bonus retain dodge bonuses.
However, if, as others have contended, it is the situation that negates both the Dex bonus and the dodge bonuses, (B) something that allows you to retain your Dex bonus wouldn't automatically cause you to retain the dodge bonuses.
And i just pulled out a later-printing D&D3E PH (i.e., with the corrections) to double-check the glossary entry on Dodge Bonus: it is worded as your paraphrase above is, which doesn't explicitly endorse either interpretation, but implies that the situation negates both sorts of bonuses, rather than that the loss of Dex bonus causes a loss of dodge bonuses. The fact that there is an explicit situation where you can lose Dex bonus but not dodge bonus (wearing armor) lends credence to interpretation (B) above--i.e., that the two are correlated, not causally linked.

 

[woodelf]

Having uncanny dodge means that you are not denied your Dex bonus when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Since you lose dodge bonuses when you are denied your Dex bonus, and not under any other listed condition, and you are NOT denied your Dex bonus when you have uncanny dodge, you do not lose your dodge bonus. QED.

No, you lose your dodge bonus in situations where you lose your Dex bonus--there's no "because" or other subordinating conjunction in there. It's a subtle difference, which may be one of sloppy wording, or of different meaning. Unless you can find me a citation that explicitly says "because you lose your Dex bonus to AC, you lose your dodge boni to AC"--everything i've found so far, or that has been cited in this thread, doesn't tell us whether it's a causal or correlative relationship. Oh, and there is at least one situation where you explicitly do not lose dodge boni, despite losing Dex bonus: the wearing of armor. Again, the wording is unclear as to whether this is a genuine exception to a rule ("you lose dodge boni when you lose Dex bonus, except if the Dex bonus loss is due to wearing armor") or an example of when the rule doesn't apply ("situations that cause you to lose your Dex bonus also will cause you to lose your dodge boni, but wearing armor is not one of these situations"). I'm certainly more comfortable with the former interpretation, but it's not at all clear that it is the only, or correct, interpretation.

 

[RigaMortus]

Oh, and there is at least one situation where you explicitly do not lose dodge boni, despite losing Dex bonus: the wearing of armor.

Ahhh, no... You do not LOSE your Dex bonus when wearing armor (such as heavy armor). You are just not allowed to apply your entire Dex bonus to AC depending on what type of Armor you are wearing, but you don't lose the Dex, it is still there. Think of it like walking into an Anti-Magic Field. You don't lose any spells that are on you, there are just suppressed. Ok, maybe not the best analogy, but you get the point (I hope).