Turning Mechanic

[Veilheim]

Last weekend, for about the fourth time since starting to play 3e, my group and I started struggling with the turning mechanic used by clerics. I wanted to bounce this off of people and see if you see any glaring errors.

Modified Turning Rules

Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a cleric or paladin can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must present a holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack. Turning is resolved using an Opposed Check of the Cleric's capability and the Undead's turn resistance.

Times per day: You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + CHR modifier. This number may be increased using the extra turning feat.

Range: The range of a turning attempt is a CLOSE radius (25'). The range increases by 5' for every two Cleric levels or every four Paladin levels.

Turning Check: The first step of the turning attempt is to establish how powerful the undead is. This establishes a DC for the turning check. An undead creature has a turn resistance equal to 10+HD+Any Levels of Turn Resistance. Thus, a WIGHT would have a turn resistance score of 10+5+2=DC17.

The Cleric or Paladin rolls against this DC for each undead creature they can see which is in the radius of the turning attempt. The roll made is 1D20+Level+CHR Modifier. Paladins add one for every two complete levels, rather than their level, to the attempt.

Use the variant Degrees of Success (DMG pg 91) to compare the results:

Less than DC No Effect
DC or Above Undead creature halts and will
not close any further with the
cleric. They will not attack the cleric,
and are "demoralized", suffering a
-2 circumstance bonus to all actions
for the remainder of the combat.
(Not cumulative).
DC +10 Undead creature immediately flees
the area of the cleric and the combat
though they still suffer the -2
circumstance bonus. Effect lasts for
10 minutes. If they cannot flee, they
will cower.
DC +20 The undead creature is immediately
destroyed.


Anyone see this blowing up in my face? If so, how come?

Thanks in advance,

Veilheim

 

[Infinite Monkey]

I like that. Its soooooo much simpler to remember. But how does it affect multiple undead? Do you roll to turn every undead within range, or use one roll for them all or what? POssibly you could add somthing like this:

Roll the check. The check (if succesful) affects one undead plus one per 2 points above the DC rolled. Any points aboce the DC left over from affecting extra undead are used to increase the power of the turning. THe cleric can voluntarily affect less undead in order to increase the affect against the affected ones.


eg. bob the cleric is attacked by 3 wights with a turn DC of 17. He attempts to turn them and rolls a 27. Because this is 10 over the required DC he can either :
1) turn all three undead as if he rolled 6 (10 points over - 4 for the two extra undead) over the DC, so they won't attack him.
2) turn 1 undead as if he rolled 10 over the check, causing that one to run away, but not affecting the other two.

Also, just from eyeballing the DCs, I would probably reduce the amounts to get better results (run away and destroyed) to 5 and 10.

 

[XCorvis]

That's pretty good. Very simple. I agree with reducing the DCs to 5 and 10 - otherwise it's just to hard to do anything but demoralize them. I think (but I'm not sure) that this might be slightly weaker than the original version, but it is more flexible.

One problem is still turning multiple undead of differing types, like 2 ghouls and a ghast.

What if you just treated all undead singlely? With Infinite Monkey's example, Bob the Cleric rolls a 27 and each Wright has a turn DC of 17. Treated as single creatures, he beats all of them by 10, either turning or destroying them (depending on how the DC works.)

Actually, if Bob is a 4th level Cleric with a Cha of 16 (+3) and he rolls a 10 on the check (average) he'd straight up destroy tons of undead.

If you do it that way, I'd keep the DCs at +10 and +20. This version still makes turning very powerful.

Just a thought...

 

[Infinite Monkey]

Thats why I made multiple undead reduce the overall effect. Doing it that way means that destroying an individual undead is relatively easy, but destroying lots is hard.

I am not at all sure about the numbers though. Perhaps beating the DC by 5 and 15 for run away and destroy. perhaps -3 per extra undead.

Also, you cannot reduce the effect below that required to turn the undead in the first place. If bob was attacked by lots of wights and rolled a 27 he could only affect 4 of them at most (if we are using -3 per extra undead), as that only leaves one extra point over the required DC.

 

[Veilheim]

Multiple Undead

Hmm.. Well, the way I originally envisioned it was as an area of effect. Maybe the way to do this is to reverse it, and have the priest generate the "DC", and have the undead save against it as though it were an area effect save.

That way, you kill two birds with one stone. You know the DC to save against (generated by the priest), you know the priest has a chance to effect everyone in the area effect, and the multiple undead save individually (just like having a giant and a horde of goblins on the field at the same time -- each saving with different Will rolls).

I was trying to avoid the "math" of dividing the effect up against a bunch of different targets and make the turning mechanic more like other mechanics in the game.

I am tending to agree about the degrees of success, though. A toned down version would be:

Critical Failure -- Creature Destroyed (ten or more under DC)
Failure -- Creature turns
Success -- Negates

Thoughts?

 

[XCorvis]

One problem with it is that it takes the effect out of the character's hands (undead roll instead of him) but that's a minor thing...

Maybe make the DC equal to 10+Level+Cha mod (of the cleric) and each undead rolls d20+HD+Turn Resist?

So it would start at a DC of minimum 11 and max out at 30+Cha (for 20th level). If you ignore turn resistance and charisma, you'd have a 50% chance of turning an undead creature of HD equal to your level.

This method makes the turning more random - you might get some high rolls from weak undead, and low rolls from the strong ones. With the old system, you'd never turn a lich before you turned his minions. Then there's the problem of working in the HD limits...

 

[Infinite Monkey]

How about actually making it an opposed roll, as you said at the top.

Cleric rolls 1d20+lvl+Cha mod.
Undead rolls 1d20+hit dice+turn resistance.

Result = cleric roll - undead roll.

Result Effect
0-10 Undead demoralized (won't approach, -2 penalty)
11-20 Undead run away
21+ Undead destroyed.

The cleric makes one roll, indicating how much power they call on from their god. The undead make one roll each, trying to resist the clerics holy power.

Also, this opens up the possibility of having bad things happen if the clerics roll is beaten. If you do this, I would make the result needed to turn and destroy undead easier, and have the bad effects very minor, as there is a good chance of multiple failures.

Eg.
Result Effect
-30- -21 1 temp wis damage to cleric
-20- -11 1d4 hp damage to cleric
-10- -1 No effect
0-5 Undead demoralized (won't approach, -2 penalty)
6-15 Undead run away
16+ Undead destroyed.

 

[CuriousBard]

Ok, this may take the discussion onto a tangent (at least for the duration of this comment alone)...and I've seen the basic concept of it posted somewhere else on a different thread idea...but what if the Turning Power of Clerics was treated in a similar vein as the Paladin's Lay on of Hands ability when it comes to attacking Undead with it?

Basically say a Cleric is able to apply "Positive Energy Levels" to undead......in essence the reverse of what those nasty suckers do to us. Every Positive Level effectively reduces an Undead's HD total by 1, makes them -1 on all their checks, etc.

Now a Cleric would have a choice....he could use his power to Blast a single target, or use an Aura effect that drives out such creatures from his presence.

1). If he targets a single creature, the total Positive Energy Levels are applied against the creature. If it brings the creature to 0 HD, then it is effectively destroyed.

2). If the Cleric sets up an Aura, the effect could be something like a 20-30+ft radius spreading out from him. All Undead in the area could feel the effects of the Positive Energy and one of three things would happen at this point. Either the creature can stay but operates at a lower HD, it is forced to leave the area of effect, or it is totally destroyed.

In the same way, an evil Cleric channeling Negative Energy would use his energy to dominate undead...reducing the undead's effective HD against him, commanding them to withdraw, or enslaving them outright.

Now I don't have any ideas worked out as to how to calculate the rolls or HD effected or how to split it all up, etc. This is just an idea that hit me right this moment as I'm reading this. Mull it over if you like.

 

[CuriousBard]

Ok, so I've had a day to mull things over (probably contributing to my lack of sleep, but hey.....).

Consider this:

A Cleric (or Paladin at 2 levels lower) can channel forth Positive energy to drive off (or negative energy to ensnare) Undead creatures. When calling forth a Turn (Rebuke) as a standard action that doesn't draw an AoO, the Cleric sets up an area of effect equal to 30ft radius centered on himself. All Undead within the area of effect must make a Will Save for half effect vs a DC of 10 + 1 per Turn charges burned + Chr modifier.

On a failed save, the Undead in question suffers -1 to all actions per level of the cleric (+ the cleric's Chr mod) as if effected by Energy Draining. It is the same (but reversed) of how Negative Energy Levels work on living creatures. If the minuses equal or exceed the Undead's total number of HD, then the creature is considered Turned and will behave as mentioned in the PHB. If the minuses equal or exceed twice the HD total of the Undead, then it is destroyed or enslaved....depending on whether the cleric is channeling Positive or Negative Energy.

On a successful save, the Undead suffers half the effect of the Turn attempt (i.e. -1 per 2 levels of the Cleric).

The effects of the Turn attempt last for 1 minute (10 rounds). But any further Turn attempts on the same Undead are not stacked.

If the cleric wishes, he can burn more than 1 Turn charge in a single check, equal to his maximum Spell Level allowed.

Example: Bob, our 4th level cleric with a 16 Chr (+3), holds forth his holy symbol and calls down heavenly power to Turn the ghouls facing him. Every ghoul within 30ft of Bob must make a Will save vs DC 14 (10 + 1 Turn Charge + 3 Chr mod). Or if Bob prefers he can expend another Turn Charge to increase the DC to 15. The total number of HD Bob can effect on any single Undead is 7 (4 levels + 3 Chr mod). So any ghoul that fails it's save is reduced by 7 HD. Since this is equal to or more than their total HD, they are destroyed. Any ghoul that makes its Will save only suffers 3 HD. This is not enough to destroy the creature, but it will effectively Turn it.

Workable?

 

[Infinite Monkey]

Sorry if this is restating your post, but I find it easier to understand people if I rewrite what they said... (plus I might modify some stuff a wee bit )

Clerics (and paladins at -2 levels) can call forth the power of their god to turn (or rebuke) undead. They can do this once per day per level +Cha modifier.

All undead within 30 ft must make a Will save (DC 10 + Cha mod). The cleric can use more than one turn attempt in order to increase the DC by +2 per turn attempt used beyond the first (so using 3 'charges' would give DC 10 + 4 + Cha mod).

Any undead that fail the save take a penalty to all rolls equal to the (clerics level + clerics Cha mod) - undeads turn resistance (if any). If the total penalty is equal to or greater than the undeads hit dice it is forced to run away, or cower helpless if it can't run. If the total penatly is equal to ro greater than double the undeads hit dice is is destroyed.

If the undead make the save then the penalty is halved BEFORE subtracting turn resistance. I.e. (clerics level + clerics Cha mod)/2 - undeads turn resistance.

Example: Bob, our 4th level cleric with a 16 Chr (+3), holds forth his holy symbol and calls down heavenly power to Turn the ghouls facing him. Every undead within 30ft of Bob must make a Will save vs DC 13 (10 + 3 Chr mod). Or if Bob prefers he can expend extra Turn Charges to increase the DC by +2 per extra Turn. Any undead that fail the save get -7 to all rolls (4 levels + 3 Cha mod). Since this is equal to or more than their total HD, they are forced to run away. Any ghoul that makes its Will save only suffers -3.

NOTE I can't remember if ghouls have turn resistance, which would change the above example