The nature of "lawful" 2

[Zweischneid]

The "Nature of Lawful" thread got me thinking and I'd like to throw up another Poll if you don't mind. Not to make a cheap copy, but to see what people think about it. It's not even so sublte as the other example, but I'd really like to know

Here (again), the scenario:

A seasoned and defenitly good-aligned fighter arrives in a LE kingdom suffering from oppression and tyranny. Taking up the fight, through many heroic deeds he builds up a group of people to fight the Tyrann, campaining many years with singular devotion (with many a personal sacrifice on the way) to the goal of bringing the evil King to his knees.

Eventually he succeds and himself becomes Kings. Immediatly he sets about to reorganize the kingdom. Slaves are made freeman, the homeless given shelter, unjust taxes are abolished, the landless crowds provided with the estates the evil Tyrann and his cronies kept to themselves through many dark years. The former laws, full of torture, cruelty and inhumane punishments are burned, a new and just code for all is written and brought to every village.


The roving mercenaries of the old regime driven from the land. A just and able security force established to watch over the people and settle disputes in the name of the new King. Torture towers and prisons are razed, new, lightflooded courts to the god of justice erected in the towns.

In essence, the Kingdom gets a complete makeover, going from lawful-evil to lawful-good at the command of one valiant soul.
But is the changing of the Kingdom itself lawful or chaotic?

 

[BlackMoria]

Lawful. The older order of things gives way to the new order of things. One set of covenants is replace by another.

It is not like order is being replaced by anarchy.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

The overall story has little to do with being Lawful aligned. It has a lot to do with being Good aligned.

 

[Hand of Evil]

*** Deleted ***

 

[Zweischneid]

The overall story has little to do with being Lawful aligned. It has a lot to do with being Good aligned.

Thats out of the question. But it also covers Change and Laws, or more precise, the "Creation of Laws", which is sort of a chaotic period (act).

What if the Kingdom decended from lawful-good to a lawful-evil tyranny?

I think it has enough lawful-chaotic questions to at least merit a Poll!

 

[ARandomGod]

Any change in law is by definition chaos.

If it makes you feel better, all laws are simply a subset of chaos.

 

[Zweischneid]

If it makes you feel better, all laws are simply a subset of chaos.

Sounds more like Zelazny than Gyrax

 

[Hand of Evil]

I apologize. Thinking on this I do not see it the same way.

I define good and evil in my game, these are the actions that are going to send you to hell or the promised land, they are a reflection of my campign area and the general belief of the gods I use, they are actions you have to perform day-in and day-out. Most LAWS are based around them.

Lawful and Chaotic are how you view and interact/interface with them and the campaign world.

This is my view, for my game.

Now, in your question, change would have to take place, you have defined what is evil and now you have to adjust the view of your population, this is a period of change of chaos.

 

[Sejs]

The society is transitioning from Lawful to Lawful. On the Law/Chaos radar, there's no ping. It didn't become more Lawful, less Lawful, more Neutral, less Neutral, more Chaotic, or less Chaotic. As others have said, the change-over was all on Good/Evil end of things; it was not a Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic act what so ever.


Just because there is a change in regime, doesn't mean it's Chaotic. If the fighter overthew the old king, smashed all trappings of his rule and then just up and left with an "okay, bye!" - it'd be Neutral. If he did his overthrowing and smashing and then took steps to make the society more autonomous, liberated and self-regulating without having to rely on an ordered hierarchy - then it would be Chaotic. Chaotic and Good if he did most of the good acts also described in the initial post.

 

[Kirin'Tor]

In general, I see the story as "Evil Law Replaced by Good Law"

I voted 'Lawful', and I generally agree with BlueBlackRed.

However, while the Fighter is (most likely) still a LG character at the end, all of his actions are not lawful - the act of opposing and deposing the existing King was inherently chaotic - as it worked directly against established law within the town (really, it was a CG act, as whiel laws were broken, evil was abolsihed, which is Good.)

The time of the transition was most probably chatoic, as multiple armies enforced differing laws, with different views. Both sides acted in mostly lawful ways (follwoing the codes and traditions alid down by their leaders) but that conflict of law preduces a period of chaos.

Overall, the story is in some ways truly about persistance on the Law\Chaos axis, where in that Evil Law is superceeded by Good Law.

1e Druids would be probably pleased as
Law lead to Chaos which lead back to Law;
and Law was created by a Chaos which was born of Law
and, of course, the cycle of good v. evil was maintained.
--That sounds to me like the kind of situation that would make a TN Druid happy!