D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[MuhVerisimilitude]

N the nerf tge wizard threa Silvery barbs came and that reminded me why I dislike that spell in the end its using a reaction to distract a target (within 60 ft) and having yourself or any ally use that distraction for advantage, why can’t a Fighter do that too?

Because "it wouldn't be realistic to have an ability that isn't magical that can do X reliably".

Some people believe, or argue anyway, that the only way to do something reliably is by using magic. If it's not magic it can't be reliable.

They'll argue for this by trying to point out edge cases. For example they might argue that "distracting" someone is not something that a person can do because every individual is always in 100% control of their own behavior and they must not be forced to make a particular choice.

They might argue that certain creatures must be immune to this effect, since the effect isn't magical.

This is how you have people legitimately arguing that it should never be possible to have a character so scary that their enemies run in panic. Because that, according to them, should require a magical effect.

 

[Bluenose]

Because "it wouldn't be realistic to have an ability that isn't magical that can do X reliably".

Some people believe, or argue anyway, that the only way to do something reliably is by using magic. If it's not magic it can't be reliable.

I think part of this is also that some people resent having to use a spell to make people afraid - that spell slot is a resource - and they don't want people getting something for free that their character has to use their most important resource to do. Getting rid of morale rules played a part in this historically, I think.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A game is not a story. It doesn't follow story logic unless everyone involved agrees it does.

But... we do agree that it does, unless the game mechanics specifically break that. Even if you play in a pre-written sandbox arbitrated by a computer, the moment you start describing something, you are engaging with story elements.

And, even before that, when someone says "I want to play a gnome" you are already engaging with the fantastical. Even if they mean a garden gnome statue, because those don't move and have agency, and a PC does. The moment you start playing, you have agreed you are entering into a fantasy world, with fantasy rules.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's stupid because wearing full armor should make it harder to swim, because wearing full armor actually makes it harder to swim.

Wearing clothes makes it harder to swim too, but Seals can swim with their uniform on, and mage robes don't make it harder to swim (despite IRL that would be just as deadly). Why is it stupid that a fantasy adventurer is a strong enough swimmer to swim with their armor on? Beowulf, remember, typical normal dude prince, swam for seven days in the ocean in full armor. My Orc Fighter is swimming for less than a minute across the shore.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It doesn't have to be gear, although the stories you keep talking about often use that method. You could also give the nartials supernatural abilities. What you can't do IMO is give your martials supernatural abilities but pretend you didn't, because you don't like labels.

sigh

You know it isn't because they don't like labels. They are using the labels to mean different things. And I was specifically and only talking about my distaste being "give them magical items" as the solution

 

[Vaalingrade]

They'll argue for this by trying to point out edge cases. For example they might argue that "distracting" someone is not something that a person can do because every individual is always in 100% control of their own behavior and they must not be forced to make a particular choice.

And they'll do it with an advertisement designed to influence them less than an inch to the right.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Everyone except fighters and rogues get explicit explanations though, even though D&D covers many settings.

And yet, we have covered this extensively.

41/42 species options in the game are explicitly supernatural. Humans are supernatural, per their own text, and there is a reason to include supernatural elements into the other classes. 60% of fighter subclasses are explicitly supernatural.

I know, I know, but they didn't use the word "magic" in the right place in the fighter class. But as was argued earlier in the thread, class descriptions can include a list of their abilities. Meaning if you give them supernatural abilities, the explanation is included with the abilities. You are demanding the cart be unloaded in front of your house before we even get the horses out of the stable.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I certainly can agree that there are people who want it. I stand by that no one needs it.

No one needs 'anything goes' fantasy either. Need has no real value in this discussion. It's just personal preference.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think maybe part of the issue with the discussion here is that "magical" is an explicitly defined term in 5e and other editions. However it is being thrown around as everything between this definition to just "beyond what a guy at my gym could achieve".
Many people who would like to see martial characters get more varied abilities are objecting to giving them magical abilities because that term has a meaning in the game that is being discussed, and it lies outside the martial concept for many of them.

Since I've already seen some of the other terms bandied about, it might be worth hearkening back to the definitions of D&D 3.5 and looking at another term: Extraordinary: Nonmagical but may still break the laws of physics.
This would cover capabilities that could not realistically be achieved in the real world, but aren't magical or supernatural in fantasy or action movie logic.
Things like Dragon or aarakocra flight, halfling muscle power, the ability of a high-level wizard to fall from low-earth orbit and walk away without using magic, hand crossbows with significant range and damage and suchlike.

All your examples read as supernatural to me. If you prefer the term extraordinary that's fine with me, but I can separate magical (spell stuff) and supernatural (everything else that goes beyond reality) just fine. The latter can't be dispelled.

 

[Minigiant]

A fire giant is 18 feet tall.

A human fighter fighting a fire giant is like a human toddler fighting a human adult.

1. Stand up.
2. Look down.
3. Imagine a 5 year old jumping up and stabbing you in the eye

Either
Human fighters can jump 5 feet straight up with no running start like in Street Fighter
OR
D&D is missing the combo move that lets human fighters injured a giants legs to make the bend over and get stabbed in the neck.
OR
Human fighters kill giants by stabbing them in the shins like a vidya game.