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D&D General The Generic Deities of D&D

Official D&D settings have, pretty consistently since first edition, the same set of monstrous and demihuman deities. They even have some of the same evil deities.

Flipping through the Monster Manual shows a lot of lore around the various monstrous or demihuman deities mentioned. . .Grummsh, Ilsenine, Corellon Larethian, Garl Glittergold, Kurtulmak, as deities presumed in the core rules of most editions.

Tiamat (and Io and Bahamut) are present in almost all of the official D&D settings. . .even in Eberron, which normally doesn't have the same Gods as the rest of D&D (albeit their role in Eberron is very minor, they are canonically present). Tiamat was even such an iconic villain of D&D that she was the big villain of the 1980's D&D cartoon series.

Evil deities such as Tharizdun or Asmodeus stretch across multiple editions, often mentioned right in the core rules themselves, and when not in the core rules, they're often depicted in generic works not tied to a specific setting.

From reading D&D core books and supplements, not tied to specific settings like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or Eberron, you'd certainly conclude that there's a certain group of deities that are presumed to be in D&D games (unless the DM says otherwise).

. . .but all those deities are either patrons of demihumans or monstrous beings, or are evil in nature. There is a conspicuous lack of a generic good setting-neutral counterpart to Asmodeus as the archetypical lawful evil deity, or Tharizdun as the generic chaotic evil deity. There's never been a human racial deity or pantheon the way the Seldarine are to Elves or Moradin is to Dwarves, or Tiamat and Bahamut are to Dragons.

As I was writing this, I thought of a counter-argument, 3e DID use an abbreviated version of the Greyhawk pantheon as a generic pantheon in the core rules (and adding deities to the core rules was a change I welcomed), but this wasn't followed in later editions, so it really isn't a constant across editions the way that the above deities were. 4e had it's own list of PHB deities which was largely, but not entirely, drawn from Greyhawk (plus Bane from the Forgotten Realms, for whatever reason). The 5e PHB included a short list of the major deities of the official worlds and historic pantheons (including such breadth of deities in the core rules was one thing 5e definitely did get right, in my opinion).

If you included deities that were mentioned in at the PHB's of 3 editions, you'd have Pelor (as the only good-aligned deity that generally accepts human worshippers), Kord (the similarly neutral deity for Humans), and Vecna (yet another evil deity, but as Vecna wasn't generally seen as deific before 3e, I didn't include him with deities that had been in core or setting-neutral D&D lore since AD&D days). If you included deities that were mentioned in the PHB's of 2 editions, you'd have the group of core Greyhawk gods from the 3rd edition PHB, which were also mentioned in the 5e PHB, plus Bane from the Forgotten Realms.

Anyone else ever think about the presumptions of core deities in D&D?
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Thinking about the various gods and the pantheons was one of the big drivers behind my homebrew world.

One thing I quickly decided is that the "core" pantheons are actually no such thing. They are the human deities. For a simple example of why this is, I'm going to assume the Forgotten Realms.

Tempus -> The God of War
Vandria Gilmadrtih -> Elf God of War
Selvetarm -> Drow God of War
Clangeddin Silverbeard -> Dwarf God of War
Deep Duerra -> Duergar God of War
Arvoreen -> Halfling God of War
Gaerdal Ironhand-> Gnome God of War

And so on and so on. I noticed it when doing wiki research into the Dwarven Pantheon (because the PHB had like five different Elf gods and only one dwarf god). And, I realized this created a problem for me. It makes no sense for their to be no human specific deities and just having the humans worshipping the "overgods" of each portfolio. I mean, if you want to pray about war, why does everyone have their own god of war when there is a general version?

Because there is no general version. All of the "non-claimed" deities are actually the human deities. And, once I decided that something actually interesting happened, that I think is a cool thematic thing.

The humans have, by far, the largest and most varied pantheon. It makes us the most religious race compared to the other big four. I mean, sure, the dwarves are often making a big deal about Moradin, but the halflings and Elves are rarely shown to be very religious. And, in most video games or summaries about DnD, what is the party make-up?

Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Halfling Rogue, Human Cleric/Paladin

Now, as to why this is not called out. I blame DnD having cold feet. Human religion is a touchy subject, and a subject DnD has a history with. So they try and not rock the boat too much, keep plausible deniability. After all, few people care about the gods of the elves or the dwarves, so they can make a stable pantheon and lore for them. But the humans? That would get messy, especially considering how much DnD liked to poke at the idea that their universe could connect to ours.
 

Undrave

Legend
There's never been a human racial deity or pantheon the way the Seldarine are to Elves or Moradin is to Dwarves, or Tiamat and Bahamut are to Dragons.

In 4e it was mentioned that no one remembers the name of the divinity Asmodeus rebelled against... and that the divinity who created humans was also forgotten. It's heavily insinuated that Asmodeus used to be an Archon of the human god and killed them to take over.
 
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Undrave

Legend
And so on and so on. I noticed it when doing wiki research into the Dwarven Pantheon (because the PHB had like five different Elf gods and only one dwarf god).

In the game I'm in the running joke is that ALL the Dwarven God have "and War" at the end of their portfolio description :p

"God of Building, Fortification and War"
"God of Knowledge, Learning, and War"
"God the Cooks and Brewers... and War"

and so forth :p
 

I think pro-PC deities (good and some neutral) tend to reflect the aspirations of the setting developer for the PC's. I think they tend to find it less annoying to create new ones rather than having some irate ideologue complain that "Kord wasn't about that at all back in X setting", unless you are going for a "best of" group like 4e's Points of Light pantheon.

Since changes in dogma for evil gods tend to affect PC's less, there is less issue with reusing them, even with changes (like the Points of Light Bane being the poster child for LN with evil tendencies rather than LE [which is funny since LN wasn't a 4e alignment]).
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
In you wanted to go all the way with a Greek/Norse-style petty, vindictive, lustful and flawed pantheon, you could take the ''core'' deities, add the main racial gods of each race to the list, and have all other ''race-specific gods of the same folio as a core deity'' be the children/creations/born-of-the-blood-of X and working as exarch/demi deities/archon of their progenitors.

ie:
Sehanine Moonbow, the wandering star (exarch): watch over the lost and the lovers. Daughter of Correlon (core deity, elven domain) and Selune (core deity, moon domain)

Vergadain, the laughing dwarf (exarch): watch over the trades dwarven cities. Created by Moradin (core deity, dwarf domain) with living-gold given by Waukeen (core deity, wealth domain) to celebrate a new treaty between the two of them.

Abbathor, the wyrm of avarice (exarch): watch over coin counting and hoarding. Created by Tiamat (core deity, evil dragon domain) from the flesh and blood of Moradin (core deity, dwarf domain) that he lost while fighting her in a forgotten battle.

Othea, the mother of giants (exarch): wife of Annam All-Father. Born of Talos (core deity, storm domain) and Sune (core deity, love domain).

Sutr, the lord of fire giants (exarch): watch over the fire giants in their quest to restore Lost Ostoria. Born from Annam All-Father (core deity, giant domain) and an unknown fire primordial in an attempt to retaliate against his wife's affair with Ulutiu (vestige, cold domain)
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
I think pro-PC deities (good and some neutral) tend to reflect the aspirations of the setting developer for the PC's. I think they tend to find it less annoying to create new ones rather than having some irate ideologue complain that "Kord wasn't about that at all back in X setting", unless you are going for a "best of" group like 4e's Points of Light pantheon.

Since changes in dogma for evil gods tend to affect PC's less, there is less issue with reusing them, even with changes (like the Points of Light Bane being the poster child for LN with evil tendencies rather than LE [which is funny since LN wasn't a 4e alignment]).

I've actually taken Bane and made him LN for my setting. He's too cool to lose, and I've made it a point to have no evil gods. The sources for evil clerics are typically Demon Princes and Archdevils in my setting.
 

I think there are two things going on here myself.

One is that these whole pantheon situations seem to be extremely ill-thought-through, confused, and conflicting, even within editions. I won't go into the whole deal, but basically every setting has "The gods adventurers might care about", which is very distinct from the gods people have actually cared about, historically. The fertility and health gods may exist but frequently get short shrift, which is er, unlikely. There's also a distinct lack of "In charge" gods. Sometimes someone is nominally head of the pantheon, or vaguely Zeus/Odin/etc. like but they're typically not strongly in charge (this is a bit less true in demihuman pantheons. This links to my next point.

Two, D&D originates from the US, a strongly religious country (compared to say, Northern Europe). A significant proportion of pre-1990s D&D players were firm in their various faiths. I think this has lead to what the OP mentions in passing, which is the lack of "good guy Asmodeus" or the like, because if you had a trans-setting good guy god, and particularly if they were either also the head of pantheon, or not connected to a pantheon, that starts looking a bit like an Abrahamic god in the way Asmodeus often looks like the Abrahamic devil. So I think we have a surprising lack of stress on traditionally important "father-figure/protector" gods and pantheon heads, and a lack of "free agent" or trans-setting good guy gods because of this, because people naturally shy away from that. Not for "OMG HERESY!" reasons, indeed I think that's not a big deal, but rather because people didn't want to do something that might be offensive to them, or to others.

I hope it's okay to say this and it doesn't fall under "no politics, no religion", because the religion is kind of immaterial (and is not being denigrated nor promoted), it's more how people negotiated the culture around this. I do think thought that it is important part of why the D&D has generally not had that sort of deity, and where it has the creators of those settings have sometimes discussed how this is an expression of or relation to their personal faith. If it is an issue, happy to delete these paragraphs (or for a mod to do so), but I feel it's impossible to correctly answer this point the OP raises without reference to this:

There is a conspicuous lack of a generic good setting-neutral counterpart to Asmodeus as the archetypical lawful evil deity, or Tharizdun as the generic chaotic evil deity. There's never been a human racial deity or pantheon the way the Seldarine are to Elves or Moradin is to Dwarves, or Tiamat and Bahamut are to Dragons.

There's also the "Bad Dad" issue, which is entirely different one, which I think also accounts for some lack of father-figure gods (relative to real life), in that a lot of D&D players historically have been young men, and it's probably fair to say that more young men aged, say, 14-24 have some rebellion/father figure issues to work out, than do not, so father-figure/protector gods get less play from that angle as well.

Re: Demihuman deities I think an awful lot of that comes down to concept-fatigue on the part of setting creators. Rather than people having some strong, intentional idea that all Dwarves or all Elves worship the same gods, trans-setting, I think what happens is, creators work out a unique or adjusted pantheon for humans, and then they're like "Ugh all the demihuman races need one too?! Um how about they just use the default one for their race!", or something along those lines.
 

Undrave

Legend
I've actually taken Bane and made him LN for my setting. He's too cool to lose, and I've made it a point to have no evil gods. The sources for evil clerics are typically Demon Princes and Archdevils in my setting.

4e Bane was pretty cool. The Astral Plane domain hinted that his eternal conflict with Grummsh was just for show, to make it seem he was too busy to be plotting something else and that he could end it at a moment's notice.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
And so on and so on. I noticed it when doing wiki research into the Dwarven Pantheon (because the PHB had like five different Elf gods and only one dwarf god). And, I realized this created a problem for me. It makes no sense for their to be no human specific deities and just having the humans worshipping the "overgods" of each portfolio. I mean, if you want to pray about war, why does everyone have their own god of war when there is a general version?

Because there is no general version. All of the "non-claimed" deities are actually the human deities. And, once I decided that something actually interesting happened, that I think is a cool thematic thing.

The humans have, by far, the largest and most varied pantheon. It makes us the most religious race compared to the other big four. I mean, sure, the dwarves are often making a big deal about Moradin, but the halflings and Elves are rarely shown to be very religious. And, in most video games or summaries about DnD, what is the party make-up?

I think part of it comes down to D&D more or less having racial relations and locations for nonhuman based on their deities.

The orcs and elves hate each other because the elf god and orc god hate each other. One elf god punishes another elf god and you get a new type of elf. One dragon god hates another dragon god so... This all "monsterizes" the nonhuman humaniods.

Human with no living patron or creator god are allowed freedom elves, gnomes, dwarves, and the like have.
 

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