D&D 3E/3.5 The 3E Anti-Power Creep thread (or... ideas for running lower-powered 3E games)

[Gothmog]

Over in the "IS D&D getting too powerful?" thread in the General Forum, some concern was voiced over the consistent increasing power creep in 3E. I am starting this thread as an endeavor to discuss methods/rules/ideas for reducing or mitigating this trend. I guess as the thread starter, I should post a few ideas to begin with.

A) Story-based XP gain instead of based on killing/overcoming monsters. My house rules are below:

What I'm going to suggest is going to sound extreme- stop giving XP awards for killing monsters, period. Instead, give XP for accomplishing goals during the adventure, good roleplaying, innovative problem solving, etc. You still figure up appropriate encounters based on CR and EL, but just don't award XP for them. I have been doing this for about a year in my campaign, and the difference in play styles is dramatic- this results in less random violence on the part of the PCs, and encourages roleplaying. The system I use is:

1. First, find out how many XP it will take for a character to reach the next level. Example: going from 4th to 5th level would require 4000 XP.

2. Before running the adventure, designate a number of minor, lesser, and major goals the PCs are looking to accomplish. For example, the characters have been hired to investigate the disappearance of the inhabitants of a small town, find them if possible, return them alive, and remove the threat that caused their disappearance in the first place.

A minor goal is something that the PCs need to do in order to get to the heart of the adventure: in this case, investigate the town looking for clues, and following a disguised trail that leads from town to an isolated forest. Finding and disabling a trap that guards the corridor into a cave where the track leads would also be a minor goal. Typically I give 2-5% of the XP needed to get to the next level for accomplishing a minor goal. So for our 4th level party, it would be 80-200 XP each, depending on the difficulty of the task.

A lesser goal would be something the PCs do in the course of accomplishing the reason for the adventure. In this case, finding the missing townspeople being held in a cave by bugbear guards, and eliminating the bugbear threat and their aboleth master are both lesser goals. Lesser goals should net the PCs 7-10% of the XP nedded for the next level. In this situation presented above, there were two lesser goals, each worth 280-400 XP each.

Finally, a greater goal would be the main reason the PCs went on the adventure in the first place. In the example, bringing as many townspeople back alive as possible is the major goal. Major goals should net the PCs 15-20% of the XP needed for the next level, or in this case 600-800 XP each.

There can be multiple minor and lesser goals in an adventure, but there should usually only be one greater goal. You should adjust the XP recieved in each goal to match the difficulty the PCs had in overcoming it. Also, the more goals you have, the less XP you should dole out for each goal.

3. Roleplaying XP- I usually give 0-15% of the XP needed for the next level for good roleplaying, staying in character, and innovative problem solving. In this case, something around 0-600 XP for each character, which is nothing to scoff at.

Using this system, characters will advance at roughly the same rate for each level, even if there are characters of differing levels in the party. It takes 3-4 adventures for characters to advance a level with this system. The 4th level party mentioned above would get around 1600-1800 XP each for the adventure. And the big bonus is you don't have to mess with that wonky CR/XP chart.


B) To keep the HP from becoming too crazy at high levels, how about the following: Give all characters a number of hp at 1st level equal to their Con + hit die type + Con modifier. Then, every level therafter, the character gets hit die + Con modifier. Basically, a version of the WP/VP system in Star Wars RPG. Alternately, you could use the lower death from massive damage rules from CoC d20, or D20 Modern.

Just a couple of ideas for now- I'll post more with ideas for a low-magic setting later once I type them on Word. Any comments are welcome.

 

[tanilen]

you know, this could just work for me. I prefer urban adventures, with emphasis on roleplaying and lots of social interaction for the bards and rogue characters. I will give this a spin and see what happens =)

 

[Clay_More]

Yeah, its kind of nice emphasizing role-playing every now & then. I always like to punish the players a little if the Min/Max too much. After I introduced Buy-Point, the game has become a bit more fair, since overly well-rolled characters dont mess it up. Yet, it has left openings for the Min/Maxers, of which we have one. Played a Human Fighter and put two 3's in intelligence and charisma. Yet, when the players later returned to town and wanted to buy some stuff, the Human Fighter, even though being richer, was severely cheated, since he couldn't haggle at all and he couldn't quite figure out if he was being cheated. He wound up getting a healing potion for 650 gp that the Bard had gotten for 55 gp. a few hours earlier, by clever use of a combination of Diplomacy and Sense Motive.

 

[Jeph]

I already use story-based exp awards, and have considered adopting an alternate Massive Damage Threshold rule (I was planning on 10 + Con score, since spells still deal relativley large amounts of damage, relatively regularly).

Charging double for magic items if you start the game at levels 4-6 usually keeps it to one or two items per PC. I like that; it doesn't eliminate magic items, but it makes them special signatures, of sorts.

For lower-magic games, you could do the double cost for magic items thingummy, and require a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) whenever a caster casts a spell. Failure indicates that your effective caster level for the spell is halved, and you take 1 point of damage per spell level.

 

[A'koss]

Gothmog, I use story-based awards as well (and implemented the same way as you have), and for the same reasons.

I'm just going to brainstorm some random points on how one might reign in 3e's "power creep".

1. Rule #1. The game should be geared towards having combat last a certain number of rounds, regardless of level, when facing "equivalent CR" opponents. 6 to 8 rounds for example. Once you have such a philosophy in place, build the game around that. Secondly, your d20 is your random element in the game, make sure you do not remove said element in the game against equivalent CR opponents. Stacked bonuses can easily do that now.

2. HP creep and HP disparity. I'm thinking that Wiz-types should get a bump to 1d6 HD, Rogues to 1d8, and everyone else stays the same. You get to apply your Con bonus until 10th level, then just your straight HD until 20th level. After 20th level, a further reduction/compression is probably in order (everyone goes to d4?) but I'm not sure how much... The Wizard bump helps them down the line as they generally don't have the Con the other classes do. It's much easier to design around having 80 - 100 HP difference between the PCs than 150 - 200+... Wizards get re-balanced spell-wise.

3. Stats. Unlike earlier editions where stat bonuses were hard to get and you didn't get as much out of them, 3e is very generous in both. Stats aren't really an issue until higher levels where stat discepencies can throw things off. Spell DCs for example (which simply should not be modified by your stats)... and especially so in combination with stat boosting spells. No real suggestion here, more of an observation. Should there be a cap for PCs (even a moving cap x/lvl) or should it be left open-ended and rebalanced in other ways? Con offers a massive, and long-term benefit that simply wasn't possible in earlier editions.

4. Spells. Andy Collins has the right idea for Save or Die spells - turn it into damage. Again, spells should be designed from the standpoint that combat should last X amount of rounds, regardless of level, when facing equal strength opposition. That will involve reducing the effectiveness of their spells that allow a single roll to determine the outcome - save or die, save or nerf. Hold could be turned into Dex damage, you cannot polymorph someone into something that cannot survive in the current environment. Turn someone into a fish, and they're amphibious. If there is a large disparity in power, naturally, anything goes.

5. Combat. This will depend on whether you do anything towards reigning in stat accrual. Again, the d20 is your only random element, and it is easy to have massive combat disparities at high levels. I feel that combat progression should start reigning in after 10th level. Maybe warrior types advance as a cleric after 10th level, everyone else as a wizard. At 20th level, everyone advances in BAB as a wizard. The fighter-types have inordinate strength, magic weapons and combat feats to make up for any loss here. Compression is good here and really helps DMs in designing challenges.

6. Saves. Saves need to be easier at high levels to ensure long-term survivability, especially since the price of failure keeps going up and up. In previous editions your HL saves we're easy, but your low level ones were hard. I'd suggest we add a "Med. Save" like we see in some other d20 products. At 20th level we should be seeing something like Good +12, Med +10, Poor +8. Unlike in earlier editions, you could have +10 to one save at this level, and +0 to another simply from stats alone. This is hard to design encounters around, especially if that +10 is towards your good save (which it usually is) and that +0 is towards your poor save (which it usually is).

7. Skills. One poster on this MB had what I thought was a brilliant suggestion here. Certain skills were treated like BAB or Saving Throws in that you gained ranks in them every level. These adventuring skills would be Sense Motive, Spot, Listen and Search.

8. AC. Class-based AC bonuses... If someone could make that work and balance it out with armor and magic that would be ideal.


I think that's enough for one post...


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Afrodyte]

2. HP creep and HP disparity. I'm thinking that Wiz-types should get a bump to 1d6 HD, Rogues to 1d8, and everyone else stays the same. You get to apply your Con bonus until 10th level, then just your straight HD until 20th level. After 20th level, a further reduction/compression is probably in order (everyone goes to d4?) but I'm not sure how much... The Wizard bump helps them down the line as they generally don't have the Con the other classes do. It's much easier to design around having 80 - 100 HP difference between the PCs than 150 - 200+... Wizards get re-balanced spell-wise.

An idea I saw someone use a while back was to have HD determined by size instead of class: d6 for small creatures, d8 for medium, and d10 for large. I don't know how well that playtested, but I thought it was an interesting idea I should share with you.

 

[Gothmog]

Ok, a few more things I thought of:

1) Spell DCs should be 10 + spell level + 1/2 caster level. That way, spell DCs scale with level, with more potent caster's spells being harder to resist. Also, it evens out the save DCs across levels so they tend to scale better with advancement. I have used this one since 3E came out.

2) In order to remove poisons, diseases, and curses with spells, the caster must make a level check with a DC equal to the DC of the effect. If the check fails, then the effect cannot be cured by that caster until he gains another level, and cannot be cured by a caster of lower level. This makes poisons, diseases, and curses something to really be feared rather than inconveniences.

3) Defense bonus equal to 1/2 the base reflex save of the class. There would be less need for magical gear and armor, but still allows for increasing AC. The defense bonus would be considered a competence bonus, so it would stack with enhancement, dodge, and various other bonuses.

4) Magic item creation always requires rare components, in addition to the listed XP and gold. This just makes sense- magic items can't be fashioned out of ordinary materials.

5) I have used this next rule in my low-magic world for about 2 years, and so far it works well. Instead of spellcasters gaining access to the next more potent level of spells every 2 levels, scale it back to every 3 levels. The chart looks like this:


Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 4 1 - - - -
2 4 2 - - - -
3 4 3 - - - -
4 4 3 1 - - -
5 5 4 2 - - -
6 5 4 3 - - -
7 5 4 3 1 - -
8 5 5 4 2 - -
9 5 5 4 3 - -
10 6 5 4 3 1 -
11 6 5 5 4 2 -
12 6 6 5 4 3 -
13 6 6 5 4 3 1
14 7 6 5 5 4 2
15 7 6 6 5 4 3
16 7 6 6 5 4 3
17 7 6 6 5 5 4
18 8 6 6 6 5 4
19 8 6 6 6 5 4
20 8 6 6 6 5 5

6th level and higher spells are ritual spells that take increasing amounts of time to cast. 6th level and higher spells take a total number of spell slots to cast equal to 2(spell level -1). In order to cast them, the caster must have at least one 5th level slot open, as well as a number of lower level slots to make the balance. 6th level spells take 2x the normal time, 7th:5x, 8th:10x, and 9th:100x.

In exchange for the reduced spellcasting capability, spellcasters may choose to cast their spells in one of two ways. The first method of magical casting is formulaic magic. Formulaic magic involves incanting specific formulae for each spell, using a prescribed set of hand gestures, and uttering magical words of power. Formulaic magic tends to be easy to cast and fairly powerful, but limits the caster in that the spell cannot be modified in any way when it is cast. A spellcaster can memorize any number of spells as formulaic spells up to his total spell alottment per level. The caster must choose which of his spells are to be cast in a formulaic manner at the beginning of each day of game play. The caster can later go back and modify this list of spells by dropping certain spells out of the list and adding others to this list between each day of rest and memorization. The advantage to using formulaic magic is that the spell is much more likely to be cast successfully, and the spell will take effect at the caster’s full level. When casting a formulaic spell, no spellcasting roll is required. The main drawback to formulaic magic is that the caster must pre-select the spells he wishes to memorize as formulaic, and if his concentration is somehow disrupted during the casting of a formulaic spell, he loses the spell slot for that day. Ritual spells (6th +) must always be cast by the formulaic method.

The second method of casting spells is spontaneous magic. Using this method, the caster casts a spell he knows without having to dedicate it to memory as he would for a formulaic spell. The only stipulations are that the spell to be cast must be known to the caster, he must have a spell slot open at least the level of the spell to be cast, and he have the necessary components to cast the spell. Spontaneous spells tend to be harder to cast than formulaic magic, requiring the caster to make a spellcasting roll, adding his Knowledge: Magical Tradition skill to the roll. In order to successfully cast a spontaneous spell, the caster must make a Knowledge: Magical Tradition or Knowledge: Religion skill check with a DC equal to 10 + 2(spell level +1). If the roll is higher than the DC needed to cast the spell, then the spell is cast successfully. If the skill check is less than the DC, then the spell is not cast successfully, but the spell slot is not wasted. If the skill check results in a natural 1, or if the skill check fails by 10 or more, then the spell slot is wasted for the day. In addition, only spells of 1st through 5th level may be spontaneously cast- more potent magics require the formulaic method. Spontaneously cast spells are less powerful than formulaically cast spells, and take effect at 1d2 levels lower than the caster’s level. The advantage to spontaneous magic is that the caster has a great deal of flexibility in his spellcasting, and can have almost any spell he knows ready in an instant.

6) To make up for a lower magic level, PCs, NPCs, and monsters gain 1 feat every odd level instead of every 3 levels.

By the A'koss, I like the idea you have about hit dice and HP maxing out. I'm going to monkey around with it and see how it would affect various characters, but it looks like a good idea.

Comments?

 

[Drawmack]

you know, this could just work for me. I prefer urban adventures, with emphasis on roleplaying and lots of social interaction for the bards and rogue characters. I will give this a spin and see what happens =)

I use this method all the time, not his exactly but somthing like it. I still give xp for killing stuff but not nearly as much as the book recomends. However I find that one way to keep the violence down in town is law enforcement. I once have 200 2nd level warrior town guards surround the inn the pcs were staying it. Those 12th level characters didn't even try to fight.

 

[shivamuffin]

I always fudge the xp. Xp is kind of like earning points on " Who's Line is it Anyway " sometimes. I come up with a set amount, and a variable amount limit for random encounters, and divy up from there...It matters more how critters are killed, rather than just killing them. I also like to award xp for getting around obstacles and for AVOIDING fights.

 

[Alchemist]

8. AC. Class-based AC bonuses... If someone could make that work and balance it out with armor and magic that would be ideal.

It's been proposed in other threads that 1/2 of the value a character's base reflex save be applied to AC.

Other, stolen, ideas:

Personal growth items, particularly ones that are implicitly tied to the character. The item is a normal item in the hands of others, but is magical when he uses it. NPC's can still be equipped with some magic gear and the DM dosen't have to concern himself with it falling into PC's hands. It might mitigate looting as well, as there's little benefit to it if there's no expensive goodies to take and use/sell.

Spellcraft checks to cast spells, as well as a trimmed back spell list. I'm going to use a spell list that tops out at 6th level with some of the 7th+ spells ritual magics. Cut out spells that make casters able to replace the other party members, like detect traps.

Slowed xp gain, but that's already been talked about and addressed in a manner that I look forward to implementing.

Things to consider adding, once you've stripped the game back:
More feats and skill points.
More non-magical goodies, like alchemical preparations and non-magical materials to construct equipment from.

I like your ideas on class advancement on the surface, but I'm a little wary of the implications. You're essentially looking to go back to 1st/2nd edition, when everything (except for spellcasting) stopped dead at 10th level. I'm not certain I like that. Perhaps re-distributing the bonuses a class provides over 20 levels to mirror the proposed advancement would be better, and wouldn't make it feel like you're powering up through the first 10 levels and then slowly expanding for the last 10. Just smooth the curve out a bit, if that makes any sense.

There's some ramblings from my brain.

edit: It would seem that a good number of these are stolen from Gothmog himself.