D&D General Styles of D&D Play

[Micah Sweet]

Yes but the earlier point being made was that your "survival" needs change as you progress. It got to the point where we weren't really concerned with how to get food but instead better metals, or specific ingredients, beyter wood, etc. Outside of just scrounging for basic food, water and shelter

Was that @Hussar 's point though? I thought they just felt food and shelter should be continuing challenges, and in Valheim and other survival games they are. In WotC 5e, because of how the rules work, they really aren't.

 

[Maxperson]

This is exactly what I consider an unwieldy workaround.

I mean, "I rejected the power of the god because the gods are evil and uncaring for the struggles of mortals, but oh, I will continue using spells anyway" even sounds weird. "...but hey, I found a new god to pray to! Overnight!" isn't noticeably better either. Even if the class itself was changed into fighter, well, that opens another can of worms: where the hell did cleric learn all the fighter's tricks? Why didn't she use any of them before?!

And then there's an issue that a sacrifice wasn't made, not really. In, say, Dungeon World, if you change your class, you can feasibly start from level 1, sacrificing all the cool things that a lvl10 character could for a clean slate without being totally useless. Your character still will be noticeably weaker, but not to the point where they are playing in a completely different league, which both a) makes sense b) doesn't necessitate learning how to play a high-level character of a completely different class.

Then don't deliberately do something that doesn't make sense. Instead of rejecting the power of the gods because gods are evil and then for some bizarre reason switching to another god, become over time disillusioned with your god and see that your god is evil, and while you are on that journey you can come to know another god slowly over time. Then at the appropriate for you moment, you can make the break from one to the other.

You can even incorporate sacrifice into it and be a spell less cleric for a time as you transition, becoming weaker for a while before you regain your former strength as a champion of the faith of X.

Your examples of D&D not working seem entirely self-made problems that are easily avoided by picking one of the 99.999% of the other ways to drive character. I mean, if I get in my car and deliberately drive into a wall, I don't get to complain that the city is actively hindering driving by allowing buildings to be constructed.

 

[Maxperson]

I'll be first to admit that dnd, specially 5ed, isn't best suited for survival games, specially if you are playing with characters at the end of Tier 2. But in tier 1 and half the tier 2, survival campaign can be done. Yes, your character can burn spell to create goodberry and another to create water. In tier 1, your druid just burned all his spells, most his spells or half his 1st lv spells. And that's just if your character need to survive themselves. But if you up the stakes and make PC-s responsible for survival of the village, then there is no goodberry and create water quick fix. We did campaign like that. Survival in a world swept with undead plague. Crops withering and rotting, wells getting poisoned. Land itself dying. Monsters roaming the land. Our druid could burn all his spells just to sustain few remaining families in village but then he is tapped out for the rest of the day and those slots do come very handy when combat starts.

You can do survival up to tier 4 if you involve other planes in the mix.

 

[Maxperson]

Goodberry is a first level spell

Most groups do not have a druid.

 

[hgjertsen]

Most groups do not have a druid.

YMMV of course

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It definitely works as a concept, but very much not to everyone's preference, and quite different from how that question was handled in every previous edition.

I consider almost any difference superior to "divine Big Brother surveillance."

 

[Imaro]

Was that @Hussar 's point though? I thought they just felt food and shelter should be continuing challenges, and in Valheim and other survival games they are. In WotC 5e, because of how the rules work, they really aren't.

But they aren't continuing challenges... bigger and better might be a challenge but basic food, water and shelter are not a continuing concern in Valheim... How can they be when you can literally set up a farm of livestock.

EDIT: For reference... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_game

 

[Maxperson]

5e doesn't have Endure elements spell. You could use Protection from energy to bypass harsh weather conditions, but it's 1 hour for one creature concentration spell. And you burned 3rd level slot for it. Yes, magic can overcome some of the stuff, but you burn slots for that. And those slots came mighty handy later. Survival is not only foraging for food or water or shelter. It's also staying away from all the things that look at you and think "foood". Or you could be mean and go by RAW with spells. FE In the lush jungle, players find small pond. Water is clear. They have Purify food and drink, so they don't bother with Survival skill since they have spell to turn it harmless. So they cast ritual, cleanse water from poisons and diseases. And in process they ingest nice parasite that would be killed by simply boiling the water and they would know it if they bothered to use Nature or Survival.

Yeah. I don't understand how the others simply don't see that having to burn a bunch of slots to survive is not only survival, but good on the PCs for having some tools to mitigate some aspects of the situation. Those spells enhance the survival style, they don't destroy it.

 

[Maxperson]

Getting decent food in Valheim and Ark (two games I've played extensively) remains a challenge all the way through; the scaling system allows for and encourages this.

Which is fine, but that's not how it usually goes. Usually you progress to harder and harder challenges as you master the prior ones.

 

[FrogReaver]

So not activity opposing is the same as supporting??

IMO, If I want the game system to get out of the way then a game system that gets out of the way is supporting me!