• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 1E Should 5e adopt 1e style arcane magic?

Would you be be willing to accept all, or at least most, of the 1e drawbacks in excha

  • Yes, I would accept all 1e drawbacks in exchange for a 1e magic system.

    Votes: 31 16.9%
  • Yes, I would accept most 1e drawbacks in exchange for a 1e magic system.

    Votes: 29 15.8%
  • No, I don't like the 1e arcane magic system.

    Votes: 83 45.4%
  • No, I don't like the 1e wizard's drawbacks.

    Votes: 60 32.8%
  • Not really; I want a 1e magic system, but without 1e drawbacks.

    Votes: 12 6.6%
  • Yes, but it should be optional rather than the default system.

    Votes: 16 8.7%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 16 8.7%

Status
Not open for further replies.

SensoryThought

First Post
1e was very much quadratic wizards. Being a first level wizards in 1e was very dangerous.

Personally I prefer less squishiness and less uber damage, as well as a more linear wizarding power curve.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Dausuul

Legend
Would you be be willing to accept all, or at least most, of the 1e drawbacks in exchange for a powerful 1e style arcane magic system?

So, what you're asking is: Would I accept some of the drawbacks of 1E magic, in exchange for also getting the other drawbacks of 1E magic?

Errrrm... no. :)

There are certain things I like about 1E magic. I like that spell disruption is a real threat with nasty sharp pointy teeth, instead of the joke it was in 3E. And I also like that 1E clearly put the concept first in spell design rather than the mechanics; to me, 3E and 4E spell descriptions feel like they were written by accountants and tax lawyers. But I don't have any desire for the return of the quadratic wizard.
 
Last edited:

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
...

"XP itself is of dubious value."

In a system where all classes have the same advancement rates, and people are expected to all level at the same time, regardless of performance or contribution, or their paltry xp bonuses that rarely change which session you level, then yes, XP is not only dubious, but moronic. The DM should just level you when he wants and it fits the story. We gave up on XP in 4e, and then later on in Pathfinder too (largely), except as a book-keeping measure to keep up with adventure modules' expected pacing. In an organic, custom campaign, it's idiotic when all PCs are expected to advance at the same rates (or else, some players will whine...? that their level 3 guy wasn't as powerful as a level 5 guy?) I never understood the reasoning behind that.

"Differing XP for classes is just a cruddy hack."

Again, only in 3.0+ where all classes are expected to level at the same rate. In 4e it's only worse, because try balancing that. A wizard in AD&D needed three quarters of a million XP to reach level 9, if he made it that far (not bloomin likely, guv'nor). I loved AD&D wizards, for the challenge and the rewards, and the creativity they allowed in solving problems. I don't want a ranged pew pew caster who's essentially no different than an AOE ranger with some nifty -- but ultimately easily boredom inducing through sheer repetition -- control effects.

Having XP mean something, where you TRY to get all those bonus points for good roleplaying, creative use of your spells, your 10% bonus for rolling well (in our game, I had to have all my stats good to reach level 14 as an evoker). First off, you need good Int, mine was 17. You needed a 16 Con to merely qualify for your class, and if you die and get raised, another good reason to have a high con...but whoops, you lose all your bonus spells. Life wasn't easy, with no armor, I needed that 16 dex to survive. With few magic items, I needed that charisma too for all the social RP scenarios where we had to convince lords and barons and contrary people to let us achieve our goals. A failed check was often a DISASTER. I once killed the entire party with a fireball, to kill the enemy pirate lord inside his ship, to prevent him from delivering his prisoners to some demon ritual that would have ended the world. When it came time to do raise dead, the party put in the 10,000 GP from the treasure (the ship was raised with help of the sea elves and their huge squid mounts) to get a real resurrection for my character. This was after I ferried everyone around the world, helped them establish baronies, fix their castle walls, but suffering every step of the way because magic was feared and illegal.

Balance for its own sake, taken to too much of an extreme -- in my opinion -- is exactly why 4e failed so quickly. It does not feel like D&D to me.

In AD&D wizards are not gods, they are hunted, shunned, feared, and usually -- killed off first. Getting to any decent level -- with the example I gave, e.g. 750,000 XP to get to level 9, was not a trivial task. Rogues would be there far earlier, and clerics too, and fighters -- they might have been lackluster, but our paladins never complained when I cast stoneskin on them, or made them fly when they needed it, or conversed with them on where to direct their paladin armies around my spells when launching an assault on the vampire lich's realm.

If anything, the only way wizards can live that long is if you are very smart (in real life), lucky every step of the way, and careful in RP situations. It needs a DM that can actually think about the consequences of rampant magic in the world, and minimize it. It should be rarer, more special...otherwise, indeed : Why would there be a fighter when everyone could fly around on magic carpets? Oh wait...because those things were expensive, wondrous, rare, and cost you an arm and a leg to make them. Usually you're better off hunting for stuff. Fighters can find a magic sword +1 and be happier with that, they get their plate armor around level 4-5 when they've accumulated enough gold, but wizards had to convince people to let them use their libraries to research spells, and spend money on scrolls with a very good chance of it being wasted outright (imagine if only 75% of the healing potions or magic armor or weapons that other classes bought would not be broken the first time they tried using them...and had to pay tons of material costs to use them each time for their upkeep).

There were tons of problems with earlier editions, but XP worked. XP in both Pathfinder, 3.0, and to a much larger 4e is basically useless if the DM introduces your new PC at the party level, rather than starting at level 1 each time they died. Exponentially increasing XP curves meant that lower level guys could catch up after one or two fights to level 4-5, when they got useful in combat or whatever they were doing. Bored with your PC? Commit suicide, roll better stats (or not..go back to suicide, then repeat), then keep playing. No, starting over at level 1 meant, like in Everquest, it was PAINFUL to die.

Quite a thing to live in fear, isn't it. For your beloved character. You might even become attached to them. Imagine that. XP is the pavlovian reward, that DING, we want as roleplayers. Let's make it mean something again, not scoff at it. Earning XP should be fun, make you want to try interesting things rather than your default I roll my swing or drop fireball at the first sign of trouble. How else is a DM to reward players in a low-magic setting? Or a low-magic item setting? XP. That's what D&D means (to me). Getting rid of XP only makes sense if you stick to gamist, contrived "everybody in the party must be within 5% of the same power at all costs...to the point of infinite respawning high level characters to replace your last one who died". No, you should EARN that high level, in a campaign. Not just be given it to you. Modules, fine. But I hate it when players just commit suicide so they can roll the dice and come up with something better, and use starting GP and cherry pick the magic items they want from a table instead of finding them.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
-Any damage would automatically result in a wasted spell. Since actions were declared before initiative was rolled, and initiative was rolled every round, you never knew how many attacks you might take before finishing your spell

This was the best feature of the system. It was a strong curb on the otherwise impressive power of high level magic-users and created a lot of tension. I would put up with a lot for this to come back.
 

Meadyaon

First Post
I would not like to got back to way 1st edition or even 2nd magic was handled. I would like the magic system to be completely redone and the Vancian casting gotten rid of for good. I would like in 5th edition to get away from having spell casters having to cast a certain amount of spells then having the need to rest. I really have never like the idea of casting a certain amount of spells per day as a wizard. To me when a wizard ran out of spells it could make the wizard less useful to your party. I started playing D&D with 2nd edition. How about something like where spells cost endurance like the powers do in Champions and how you can slowly recover your endurance without having to rest to get the wizard's spells back. You could have stat that determines how much endurance you recover over time to help the wizard be more productive in combat. So that what it can be more like where you magic casting spells like you see in movies and books and such. In most movies I have never seen a wizard have to rest to get it spells back. Spell point would make it easier but you would still would have to rest to get them back. If you did it the way i am suggesting you could make highly level spells cost more endurance and it might take a few minutes to get back the endurance to cast another high powered spell. I am just looking for away to make wizard not suck so much especially at lower level Also you would not have to worry if your party go to suck now that the wizard can not cast anymore spells especially at lower levels.
 
Last edited:

P1NBACK

Banned
Banned
Explaining to my teenage relatives that wizards could only cast two spells a day (I was being generous) was greeted with disbelief.

They played fighters.

When the 1E Wizard casts Sleep on them, and then performs coup-de-grace on them, I bet their tune changes. ;)
 

For me these drawbacks worked well. Many chide the xp progression but having switched back and forth between 2e and 3e, i personally like it as a balancing force (I also think it captures what a wizard is about--weak to start but mighty in the end...it just takes a while to get there). This certainly isn't for everyone, but I don't think it is objectively unworkable as some have suggested. It was dropped because they needed to streamline the multiclassing system for 3e and tiered progressions was an impediment to that. That was a design decision that suited the needs of the new edition...doesn't mean it is a bad idea just because WOtC dropped it. I think it is certainly worth revisiting.
 

Mattachine

Adventurer
When the 1E Wizard casts Sleep on them, and then performs coup-de-grace on them, I bet their tune changes. ;)

In my experience, their tune didn't change. Ever since I began DMing games in middle school, myself and other players of magic-users either found workarounds or asked for house rules to mitigate or remove the limitations of Vancian casting.

The most common method was not starting with level 1 characters. My players preferred starting at about level 3, and as a DM, I preferred starting at something like level 5 or 7. In both cases, it was a way to have a caster who didn't end up throwing darts most of the time.
 

P1NBACK

Banned
Banned
The most common method was not starting with level 1 characters. My players preferred starting at about level 3, and as a DM, I preferred starting at something like level 5 or 7. In both cases, it was a way to have a caster who didn't end up throwing darts most of the time.

That makes it sound like you guys were in combat most of the time. My old school games were mostly exploration. So, throwing darts was rare. And, combats were extremely quick in most cases.

If you're playing 4E, where combats last 1.5+ hours, sure, I can see the case for dropping vancian casting and adding "at-wills". But, in our B/X game, the mages do just fine and seem to have just as much (if not more) fun with trying to make the most out of their limited resources.
 

Mattachine

Adventurer
My old school games had as much combat as now, sometimes even more. AD&D was as much about combat as any other edition, whether it was random dungeons using the tables in the DMG, playing published TSR modules, or short adventures out of Dragon.

Even if the wizard wasn't "throwing darts", once out of spells, there wasn't much to do, even in exploration. Even worse, the wizard at low level had to choose between some exploration spells and combat spells. Yes, your level 2 wizard could memorize detect magic, but probably took sleep, twice.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top