Sehanine's Reversal, Death and Dying, and NPCs

[Rystil Arden]

Okay, so one thing we know about 4e is that NPCs insta-die at 0 and don't get to make the death saves that PCs do. I understand that this is to save the GM the effort of tracking it, but it's no trouble for me to track it, so I suspect I'll houserule the dying condition for NPCs as well.

Anyway, I have a directly-relevant non-hypothetical question (I'm playing Keep on the Shadowfell today with a GM who has all the books, and so I made a PC who worships Sehanine and was thinking of taking Sehanine's Reversal). On a Natural 20, it lets you transfer the condition you just ended with your saving throw 1/encounter (expending your Turn Undead attempt) to an enemy of your choice (no attack necessary--it automatically succeeds thanks to your Nat 20). Initially I scoffed at the feat--okay, so on the off-chance I stopped the 5 poison damage and got very very lucky with a 20, and now I can give that damage to an enemy. But then it hit me--On a Natural 20 against dying, you get to use a healing surge to rejoin the fray--what's more, you get to make lots of those death saves if you are low, many more than you would make against any other condition (since other conditions usually end after one successful save 55% of the time, and death tends to give you ~6 saves each time unless someone intervenes, plenty of chances to roll a 20).

So the question: What the heck happens when you use Sehanine's Reversal after making a death save? They should be dying now. But NPCs can't be dying--they just die. My gut instinct is that they die instantly. This seems...very very powerful, particularly against a solo. I can see it now: "Strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. My goddess lives on the edge between life and death, dark and light, insanity and genius. When I visit that twilight realm and lie on the brink of death, I gain an epiphany of her power. Perhaps I will perish and be with her forever. But perhaps I shall emerge with a dark secret that will crush your soul. Comrades, heal me not. We will let this be a test of the Goddess's will."

Without a good answer to this question (since the feat is essentially garbage otherwise), I went multiclass Star Pact Warlock instead. Perhaps you can tell from the above flavour text

Is this 4e's first save-or-die effect (although it's actually critically save and someone else dies).

 

[Mort_Q]

Is dying considered a condition?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Is dying considered a condition?

It is specifically listed and described in the list of conditions.

 

[malraux]

Well, assuming you're not missing something, they gain the dying condition (0hp, unconscious, make death saving throws).

However, note that you aren't making a saving throw, but a death saving throw. Its a different phrase with a different mechanic.

 

[DSRilk]

Regardless of the rules-lawyering that could be done, I'd say that logic must prevail. In other words, no, a level 5 character can't kill a level 30 demon lord by rolling a 20 on death save.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, assuming you're not missing something, they gain the dying condition (0hp, unconscious, make death saving throws).

However, note that you aren't making a saving throw, but a death saving throw. Its a different phrase with a different mechanic.

The only way we can say for sure is once we know if the human feat's +1 to all saving throws (or any other save conditional, this is just the simplest) applies to Death Saving Throws. This will tell us whether a Saving Throw againt death is indeed a Saving Throw.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Regardless of the rules-lawyering that could be done, I'd say that logic must prevail. In other words, no, a level 5 character can't kill a level 30 demon lord by rolling a 20 on death save.

Malraux had a good idea, but if Death Saving Throws turn out to be considered Saving Throws, it actually requires rules lawyering or house-ruling to allow logic to prevail. Which is fine--I'd house-rule it to let logic prevail in a second in my game, without a doubt.

It seems such rubbish though--perhaps if the feat allowed you to transfer the condition to an enemy with a successful Wis v Will attack, but you could trigger it on any successful save. You still only get it 1/encounter and it uses up Channel Divinity too, so it's not like you can use it that much.

Frankly, with the regular wording, you'll have probably used Channel Divinity for something else by the time you roll the Nat 20 on a save, and then you'll be unable to use the feat ability anyway (unless you wait and wait, in which case most fights you've wasted Channel Divinity).

 

[malraux]

OOOO, I just noticed that the 3 fails of the death saving throw = death is per encounter, not per each time you get knocked to 0. That really gets rid of the "oh, regdar's got at least two more rounds before he's dead, we can wait" approach.

 

[stonegod]

I'm fairly certain Death Save != Saving Throw, though I don't have the books yet. They share a similar name and mechanic, but unless the bonus to saves some races have apply to the Death Save, they'd be distinct from a rules perspective.

 

[ThirdWizard]

This sure sounds like a saving throw to me!

Death Saving Throw: When you are dying, you need to make a saving throw at the end of your turn each round. The result of your saving throw determines how close you are to death.

OOOO, I just noticed that the 3 fails of the death saving throw = death is per encounter, not per each time you get knocked to 0. That really gets rid of the "oh, regdar's got at least two more rounds before he's dead, we can wait" approach.

That, I think, is a huge revelation. OMGWTFBBQ!! moment for me.