D&D 5E Project Monsters by Level (not CR)

[dave2008]

Sure! It's a rabbit hole, that's for sure. It's always interesting to see what you come up with, especially with all the monster design you've been engaged with.

I went with d8 Hit Dice as "typical" because that's almost in the middle of all the D&D classes assuming roughly equal representation of classes across all tables (see below). And I choose 12 Constitution because most of the PCs I've seen at my table seem not to dump stat Con, but also not to sink their highest scores in Con. But there's no maths involved, just eyeballing.

d6 = Sorcerer, Wizard
d8 = Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Warlock
d10 = Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
d12 = Barbarian

I'm think that something like your approach makes some sense. Maybe I will create a PC by level table, like the Monster by CR table, with expected HP, AC, DPR, and attack bonus. That way it is very clear what is the comparison. The use that as a basis for monster level.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm think that something like your approach makes some sense. Maybe I will create a PC by level table, like the Monster by CR table, with expected HP, AC, DPR, and attack bonus. That way it is very clear what is the comparison. The use that as a basis for monster level.

Yeah, that's a really useful tool that I wish the designers provided because it says a lot about the assumptions of the game. There's an analysis – can't find the link – a fan did of how many goblins a 1st level fighter kills throughout the editions before the fighter is taken down. That sort of thing is invaluable to establish a baseline.

I'll take a stab at a chart for the Rogue (Thief), since it's an easier starting point.

Assumptions:

• Overall, I'm assuming a non-optimizing player who is experienced enough to run the class effectively in combat.
• Rogue with Thief subclass
• 16 in prime ability score (Dex) at 1st, up to 18 at 4th (ASI), and 20 at 8th (ASI).
• 12 Constitution.
• Max HP at 1st, average HP after 1st level.
• Wearing studded leather (AC = 12+Dex) & wielding a rapier one-handed.
• At 10th level, 12th, 16th, and 19th levels picks up feats or ASIs to flesh out the character that don't necessarily affect the numbers on this table.
• Reliably adds Sneak Attack damage once per round, thanks to subclass features, Hiding, allies working together, or opportunity attacks.
• Cunning Action (2nd level) is roughly worth a +1 AC bonus for getting distance from melee, avoiding opportunity attacks, and being hidden. This is a low value assumption because PCs have more uses for bonus actions typically, and sometimes you just don't have a great way to Hide. I think you could safely increase this instead to +2 AC, assuming that the rogue Hides about half the time with Cunning Action.
• Starting at 5th level, Uncanny Dodge allows the rogue to halve damage from one attack per round. First, I'm assuming that a rogue gets to use Uncanny Dodge about once per day/rest (due to a combo of avoiding being targeted in the first place, some monsters forcing saves, or the rogue using their reaction for other things). This is a low-ball assumption...Uncanny Dodge might contribute up to 3x that in a particularly intense melee. Second, we need a sense of what average monster damage actually looks like by CR (tl;dr the SRD monsters' avg damage caps close to 20 at CR 11+). This number might look different factorign VGtM, MToF, MMotM, and newer books. Third, we need to make some kind of assumption about "Typical Monster CR" encountered at each level – I'm going with CR = Level - 2 (i.e. CR 3 at 5th, etc). So I've created an Avg Monster Atk Dmg column, and added half of that to the rogue's HP (rounded down) starting at 5th level when they get Uncanny Dodge. Though this is a BIG assumption at lower levels, if that ~20 damage cap holds true, then it stops being a significant assumption at higher levels.
• Thief's Reflexes (17th level) allow for an extra turn at the start of combat. This equates to approximately a +33% increase in damage, assuming typical 3-round combats.
• Elusive (18th level) is roughly worth another +1 AC bonus. Just eyeballing it.
• Stroke of Luck (20th level) is roughly worth a +1 bonus to attack (i.e. comparable to Advantage once per combat, which is +4 divided by 3... rounded down to +1).
• I wasn't sure about how to factor critical hit damage, so for simplicity I left it out for now.
• For comparison purposes, I did not include magic weapons/items.
• While I did not include Advantage in the Attack Bonus, my GM hunch is that a rogue has Advantage on maybe half of its attack rolls. The median bonus from Advantage over all target rolls is +4. So, I think a safe assumption may be increasing the rogue's attack bonus universally by +2.

Rogue Level	Avg Monster Atk Dmg (of a monster whose CR = level -2)	HP	AC	DPR	Attack Bonus
1	–	9	15	11 (1d8+3+1d6)	+5
2	–	15	16	11	+5
3	–	21	16	14.5 (1d8+3+2d6)	+5
4	–	27	17	14.5	+6
5	10	38 (33+5)	17	19 (1d8+4+3d6)	+7
6	12	45 (39+6)	17	19	+7
7	15	52 (45+7)	17	22.5 (1d8+4+4d6)	+7
8	15	58 (51+7)	18	22.5	+8
9	17	65 (57+8)	18	27 (1d8+5+5d6)	+9
10	17	71 (63+8)	18	27	+9
11	20	79 (69+10)	18	30.5 (1d8+5+6d6)	+9
12	20	85 (75+10)	18	30.5	+9
13	20	91 (81+10)	18	34 (1d8+5+7d6)	+10
14	20	97 (87+10)	18	34	+10
15	20	103 (93+10)	18	37.5 (1d8+5+8d6)	+10
16	20	109 (99+10)	18	37.5	+10
17	20	115 (105+10)	18	54.5 [1.33* (1d8+5+9d6)]	+11
18	20	121 (111+10)	19	54.5	+11
19	20	127 (117+10)	19	59 [1.33*(1d8+5+10d6)]	+11
20	20	133 (123+10)	19	59	+12

Now we can take some of those values for the Rogue (Thief) and cross-reference with the example monsters you gave – Orc, Ettin, Frost Giant, Arcanaloth, Death Knight – and see what shakes out...

Est. Level	Monster	Monster DPR (Average)	Monster Attack Bonus	Rogue's AC	Factored Damage (%hit * DPR)	Rogue's HP	% Reduction to HP
1	Orc	9	+5	15	5 (.55 * 9)	9	55%
5	Ettin	28	+7	17	15 (.55 * 28)	38	39%
10	Frost Giant	50	+9	18	30 (.6 * 50)	71	42%
15	Arcanaloth (finger of death)	62	save DC 17	CON save +1	46 (.75 * 62)	103	45%
20	Death Knight (staggering smite)	95	+11	19	62 (.65 * 95)	133	47%

 

[NotAYakk]

Multiply CR by 4. Add up monster levels.

80% of PC levels is easy
100%of PC levels is medium
133% of PC levels is hard
160% of PC levels is deadly

Divide solos by 4 and elites by 2 to taste.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, that's a really useful tool that I wish the designers provided because it says a lot about the assumptions of the game. There's an analysis – can't find the link – a fan did of how many goblins a 1st level fighter kills throughout the editions before the fighter is taken down. That sort of thing is invaluable to establish a baseline.

I'll take a stab at a chart for the Rogue (Thief), since it's an easier starting point.

Assumptions:

• Overall, I'm assuming a non-optimizing player who is experienced enough to run the class effectively in combat.
• Rogue with Thief subclass
• 16 in prime ability score (Dex) at 1st, up to 18 at 4th (ASI), and 20 at 8th (ASI).
• 12 Constitution.
• Max HP at 1st, average HP after 1st level.
• Wearing studded leather (AC = 12+Dex) & wielding a rapier one-handed.
• At 10th level, 12th, 16th, and 19th levels picks up feats or ASIs to flesh out the character that don't necessarily affect the numbers on this table.
• Reliably adds Sneak Attack damage once per round, thanks to subclass features, Hiding, allies working together, or opportunity attacks.
• Cunning Action (2nd level) is roughly worth a +1 AC bonus for getting distance from melee, avoiding opportunity attacks, and being hidden. This is a low value assumption because PCs have more uses for bonus actions typically, and sometimes you just don't have a great way to Hide. I think you could safely increase this instead to +2 AC, assuming that the rogue Hides about half the time with Cunning Action.
• Starting at 5th level, Uncanny Dodge allows the rogue to halve damage from one attack per round. First, I'm assuming that a rogue gets to use Uncanny Dodge about once per day/rest (due to a combo of avoiding being targeted in the first place, some monsters forcing saves, or the rogue using their reaction for other things). This is a low-ball assumption...Uncanny Dodge might contribute up to 3x that in a particularly intense melee. Second, we need a sense of what average monster damage actually looks like by CR (tl;dr the SRD monsters' avg damage caps close to 20 at CR 11+). This number might look different factorign VGtM, MToF, MMotM, and newer books. Third, we need to make some kind of assumption about "Typical Monster CR" encountered at each level – I'm going with CR = Level - 2 (i.e. CR 3 at 5th, etc). So I've created an Avg Monster Atk Dmg column, and added half of that to the rogue's HP (rounded down) starting at 5th level when they get Uncanny Dodge. Though this is a BIG assumption at lower levels, if that ~20 damage cap holds true, then it stops being a significant assumption at higher levels.
• Thief's Reflexes (17th level) allow for an extra turn at the start of combat. This equates to approximately a +33% increase in damage, assuming typical 3-round combats.
• Elusive (18th level) is roughly worth another +1 AC bonus. Just eyeballing it.
• Stroke of Luck (20th level) is roughly worth a +1 bonus to attack (i.e. comparable to Advantage once per combat, which is +4 divided by 3... rounded down to +1).
• I wasn't sure about how to factor critical hit damage, so for simplicity I left it out for now.
• For comparison purposes, I did not include magic weapons/items.
• While I did not include Advantage in the Attack Bonus, my GM hunch is that a rogue has Advantage on maybe half of its attack rolls. The median bonus from Advantage over all target rolls is +4. So, I think a safe assumption may be increasing the rogue's attack bonus universally by +2.

Rogue Level	Avg Monster Atk Dmg (of a monster whose CR = level -2)	HP	AC	DPR	Attack Bonus
1	–	9	15	11 (1d8+3+1d6)	+5
2	–	15	16	11	+5
3	–	21	16	14.5 (1d8+3+2d6)	+5
4	–	27	17	14.5	+6
5	10	38 (33+5)	17	19 (1d8+4+3d6)	+7
6	12	45 (39+6)	17	19	+7
7	15	52 (45+7)	17	22.5 (1d8+4+4d6)	+7
8	15	58 (51+7)	18	22.5	+8
9	17	65 (57+8)	18	27 (1d8+5+5d6)	+9
10	17	71 (63+8)	18	27	+9
11	20	79 (69+10)	18	30.5 (1d8+5+6d6)	+9
12	20	85 (75+10)	18	30.5	+9
13	20	91 (81+10)	18	34 (1d8+5+7d6)	+10
14	20	97 (87+10)	18	34	+10
15	20	103 (93+10)	18	37.5 (1d8+5+8d6)	+10
16	20	109 (99+10)	18	37.5	+10
17	20	115 (105+10)	18	54.5 [1.33* (1d8+5+9d6)]	+11
18	20	121 (111+10)	19	54.5	+11
19	20	127 (117+10)	19	59 [1.33*(1d8+5+10d6)]	+11
20	20	133 (123+10)	19	59	+12

Now we can take some of those values for the Rogue (Thief) and cross-reference with the example monsters you gave – Orc, Ettin, Frost Giant, Arcanaloth, Death Knight – and see what shakes out...

Est. Level	Monster	Monster DPR (Average)	Monster Attack Bonus	Rogue's AC	Factored Damage (%hit * DPR)	Rogue's HP	% Reduction to HP
1	Orc	9	+5	15	5 (.55 * 9)	9	55%
5	Ettin	28	+7	17	15 (.55 * 28)	38	39%
10	Frost Giant	50	+9	18	30 (.6 * 50)	71	42%
15	Arcanaloth (finger of death)	62	save DC 17	CON save +1	46 (.75 * 62)	103	45%
20	Death Knight (staggering smite)	95	+11	19	62 (.65 * 95)	133	47%

Awesome! That is more in-depth than what I was thinking, but great info. Thank you!

 

[dave2008]

Multiply CR by 4. Add up monster levels.

80% of PC levels is easy
100%of PC levels is medium
133% of PC levels is hard
160% of PC levels is deadly

Divide solos by 4 and elites by 2 to taste.

Did you read the OP? That is not at all what I am trying to do.

 

[Quickleaf]

@dave2008 Yeah, it's white room stuff, so take with a grain of salt, but at least it's informed by my experiences running and playing 5e. Probably the most valuable part of my analysis is being up front about the sorts of assumptions I had to make – because any effort to decode this stuff involves getting into underlying design assumptions. The important thing is to distinguish those assumptions that REALLY move the dial vs. those assumptions that if we change only change the numbers a little bit.

I think the rogue is a pretty good baseline to compare from – middle of the road hit points and damage that "feel" like a solid typical adventurer.

EDIT: One thing from the rogue analysis that I noticed is that – without help from their friends, a clever ploy, a magic item, or lucky rolls – the rogue would be felled in about 3 rounds by any of these foes consistently hitting him. That might be a good starting design guideline to try out – i.e. a monster whose level equals a PCs' level deals 1/3rd of the PCs' hit points in damage on its turn.

 

[NotAYakk]

But, a level 7 monster in 4e was not equal in power to a level 7 PC. In fact, 4 of them where a medium difficulty challenge for 4 level 7 PCs.

The monster level was advice about what band of PC levels the mosnter was used for.

This made encounter building easy (together with how it measured XP: but you can pretty much ignore XP in 4e and use relative levels instead. 4e XP was basically 100* 2^((level-1)4) with rounding.

Which means a Level X+4 monster is worth 2 Level X monsters, a X+2 was worth about 1 and a half, X-4 is half, etc, regardless of X.

Easy encounter building needs easy math. 5e alread has it, mostly hidden.

But 5e PCs are balanced around adventuring days, not encounters like 4e PCs are.

 

[Oofta]

I'm just not sure this isn't just CR by another name.

While I applaud the effort to fix things, I'm not sure it can be fixed. Let's take 2 groups. Group 1 is made up of either dwarves or PCs with high con modifiers. Group 2 has a mix, no dwarves and average-for-adventurers constitutions.

Now suppose they run into a green dragon. In group 1, the dwarves will have advantage on their poison saves and take half damage from the breath weapon. Group 2 will be at much higher risk. But wait ... what if group 1 significantly lacks ranged attacks while group 2 is full of archers and PCs with ranged spells? Suddenly the picture could look far different. My own experience is that you have to balance the encounters on a group by group basis.

Any system we come up with is never going to be fool proof. I think there are better calculations for balancing encounters based on CR than what we get in the DMG, I'm just not sure how this helps much.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm just not sure this isn't just CR by another name.

While I applaud the effort to fix things, I'm not sure it can be fixed. Let's take 2 groups. Group 1 is made up of either dwarves or PCs with high con modifiers. Group 2 has a mix, no dwarves and average-for-adventurers constitutions.

Now suppose they run into a green dragon. In group 1, the dwarves will have advantage on their poison saves and take half damage from the breath weapon. Group 2 will be at much higher risk. But wait ... what if group 1 significantly lacks ranged attacks while group 2 is full of archers and PCs with ranged spells? Suddenly the picture could look far different. My own experience is that you have to balance the encounters on a group by group basis.

Any system we come up with is never going to be fool proof. I think there are better calculations for balancing encounters based on CR than what we get in the DMG, I'm just not sure how this helps much.

I think the goal is just a better lingua franca (so many GMs get CR confused and use the "level" language) that is more consistent than what we have already.

Definitely going to have the issues you point out about situational benefits/drawbacks.

The DMG lightly touches on this, but in the Green Dragon vs. High Con/Dwarf Party, I would mark down those PCs having a situational benefit. If I wanted to preserve the threat for that party the same as if they were not High Con/Dwarf, then I'd add a situational drawback – e.g. have the Green Dragon ambush the party, restrict the PCs' ability to see the dragon, present some ongoing damage in the environment, or catch them in the midst of another demanding activity like defending an emissary or fixing a bridge.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm very interested to see what you come up with here. I'd even be interested in helping to build/convert some monsters once you have a working framework.