Problems creating a campaign

[corcio]

i am an aspiring DM wishing to improve upon the many different downfalls my gaming group has had over the recent months. ive noticed several things that im going to try and fix...but i need help figuring some stuff out see below.

PROBLEMS
1. mostly all the players feel that they are always too weak... always starting lvl 1
2. the campiangs seem to offer either too many choices OR are to wide spread and the adventure feels very drawn out. or too few and feels like railroading is going on
3. the settings never seem to change dramatically. and the EVIL guys...well why shouldnt we join them for once...they seem to be enjoying themselves.

my solutions (which is what i actually need help with)
1. start out at a higher level (5 perhaps) and giving them an extra template. its gonna be there to give them an extra boost and that COOOOOL factor that some people desire.
2. i have a few set choices for each part of the story. usually 1 of 3-4 different outcomes. ESSENTIALLY go NORTH SOUTH EAST OR WEST....or somehting like LIVE, DIE, RUN AWAY, WIN...something like that to limit the choices slightyl...but still offer alternitives....but they wont be stuck no matter what they do....which is always the end of the game it seems...as soon as the party is stuk in the same hallway with no other possibly activity....thats the end.(sorry for brief rant lol)
3. i for one dont mind a familiar setting but sometimes i think a few tweakings need to be in order...the towns are always poor and never seem to interesting. even the bigger cities just seem to lack life...i dont know how to deal with this problem. BUT as far as the evil guys go...why shouldnt the party be allowed to join the evil guys. i would sometimes..

well there are some obvious problems with my solutions
1st problem. im not sure how powerful a group of four 5th lvl characters can be..whats a good challenge for them. i dont quite grasp the CR rating in the DMG. and besides that compared to some well known figures....would alvl 5 fighter compared to a lvl 1 fighter be something like (lvl 1 fighter = the guy behind the counter at mcdonalds wielding a frying pan and a lv 5 fighter = jet li on crack?) is that a valid comparison? help me figure HOW powerful a lvl 5 character would be....cause i want them fairly tough. and i will deck them out in some nice items too. suggestions welcome

2nd some of my choices may seem like railroading but i obviously have a story i want to delve into with the group...but if they just refuse to go south to find my BBEG...then will they only get random encounters if they go to the NORTH> how do i get them somewhere i want with out blatant railroading?

3. i realize that if the party splits up between good and evil then it will cause some dilemas in the group. i mean say 3 of the 4 turn evil. the 4th one is pretty much doomed to die at their hands...or something...what should i do about letting them play whichever alignment they want...yes even chaotic evil. there will be consequences....but how have you handled this?

ok well thats a lot to swallow but those are some of my main concerns....ANY AND ALL ADVICE WOULD BE VERY VERY MUCH APPRCIATED.
thanks i cant wait for some input.....HELP THE NOOB
lol
peace out

-CORCIO-

 

[wedgeski]

Hi Corcio. My own few pennies for the well:

1. start out at a higher level (5 perhaps) and giving them an extra template. its gonna be there to give them an extra boost and that COOOOOL factor that some people desire.

This is a totally cool idea as long as you think your players can handle the more powerful characters from the outset... and the fact that their enemies are going to be much more powerful as well. I can't really answer that without knowing how much D&D you guys have played.

2. i have a few set choices for each part of the story. usually 1 of 3-4 different outcomes. ESSENTIALLY go NORTH SOUTH EAST OR WEST....or somehting like LIVE, DIE, RUN AWAY, WIN...something like that to limit the choices slightyl...but still offer alternitives....but they wont be stuck no matter what they do....which is always the end of the game it seems...as soon as the party is stuk in the same hallway with no other possibly activity....thats the end.(sorry for brief rant lol)

Sounds like you have a bit of an expectation clash here. Do the players actually *want* to be railroaded? If they're stuck in that dead end and aren't going out of their way to find a way forward (talking to contacts, investigating obscure leads, etc.) then they may well be the type of group that prefers to have the game laid out for them. How much roleplaying do they engage in? Do they *like* talking to NPC's? You have to work out what kind of game they want to play... or just ask them straight out.

3. i for one dont mind a familiar setting but sometimes i think a few tweakings need to be in order...the towns are always poor and never seem to interesting. even the bigger cities just seem to lack life...i dont know how to deal with this problem.

Steal from other settings. If this is a homebrew, just drop Waterdeep or Sharn or even Ptolus into the setting. If you don't like that idea, then use those places as inspiration for your own cities, or just borrow plot hooks/factions/and NPC's instead of the whole shebang.

BUT as far as the evil guys go...why shouldnt the party be allowed to join the evil guys. i would sometimes..

You really have to build a campaign around an evil group, and ALL of them have to play evil PC's for it to work. (Disclaimer: I've never played or run an evil campaign and wouldn't want to anyway.)

If your players think that only the evil guys are having 'fun', then what are the evil guys doing that is so fun? It may sound outlandish but perhaps you can translate that into plot hooks for a good-aligned party. On the other hand if they just like the sound of killing, maiming, and terrorising the good and the just, then an evil campaign may be the only thing that will make them happy.

1st problem. im not sure how powerful a group of four 5th lvl characters can be..whats a good challenge for them. i dont quite grasp the CR rating in the DMG. and besides that compared to some well known figures....would alvl 5 fighter compared to a lvl 1 fighter be something like (lvl 1 fighter = the guy behind the counter at mcdonalds wielding a frying pan and a lv 5 fighter = jet li on crack?) is that a valid comparison? help me figure HOW powerful a lvl 5 character would be....cause i want them fairly tough. and i will deck them out in some nice items too. suggestions welcome

The Challenge Rating and Encounter Level rules are your friends, you should try to get to grips with them. Generally an opponent with a CR equal to the party level+3 will be a very hard encounter. In terms of what that actually *means* (MacDonalds or Legend), I'm afraid that depends on your campaign and the spread of levels amongst the important NPC's in the world.

 

[edemaitre]

Campaign ideas

I sympathize. Here are a few suggestions:

-While I also prefer to start Player Characters at first level, how about offering new (sub)races and classes? Unearthed Arcana and Savage Species have some options.

-If your settings are too "vanilla," try creating some cultures based on real-world history. For example, maybe the Lizard folk have an Aztec-like empire with jungle pyramids, human sacrifice, and astrological rituals, and maybe the Elves are like the pre-Roman Celts or "Star Trek's" Vulcans, or the Dwarves are like the Scots, Vikings, Slavs, or Klingons...

-Cities should be dangerous, full of wonders (colorful Non-Player Characters, fantastic landmarks, and odd shops) and perils (multiple factions representing most alignments, social classes, and adventuring occupations). For example, even a Lawful Good city will have a thieves' guild, and even a Chaotic Evil Orcish one might have a place for Paladins to furtively gather. Bards aren't necessarily the only ones telling tall tales, and Clerics don't have to be the only preachers on street corners or in shrines...

-In a good homebrew setting, there should be plot threads no matter which direction on the compass your party chooses. There may be a dragon graveyard in the mountains to the north, giants raiding the plains villages to the west, undead pirates on the seas to the south, and a good human realm fighting corruption by Yuan-ti to the east. Even at low levels, the P.C.s would know about these things, giving them choices and you time to flesh out appropriate challenges. Remember, getting there is half the fun, with random wilderness encounters, the occasional dungeon to raid, and cities for resupplying and for arcane spellcasters to learn about new skills/feats/spells while trying not to cross the wrong faction...

-Power-hungry role-players are often tempted to play Chaotic Evil characters, believing that without the normal restrictions, they can have more fun. If you prefer a good-aligned group or story, that's a problem. You could let them try an all-evil party for once, so that they learn that backstabbing one another, evading Lawful Good authorities, preying on the weak while trying to hide from those stronger than themselves (and there are always lots of those, especially on the outer planes), and merely amassing magic items and wealth aren't the best routes to success or long lives.

Or, you could reward teamwork, thoughtful role-playing of Paladins and other divine spellcasters, and information-gathering over resource management. A friend in every town, the blessings of a deity, and a smoothly functioning party (in and out of character) can succeed in almost any quest. Don't limit the group's options to life and death--shouldn't some P.C.s aspire to lead a realm, found a temple, or protect/avenge some family members? What can motivate them besides a lust for power? As a previous poster noted, interesting foes can help provide a shared goal that doesn't involve killing everything in sight and taking their stuff. Good luck, and happy gaming!

 

[wmasters]

It doesn't really answer the question, but one thing that might be worth looking at is published adventures or campaigns. There are a lot of very good published adventures and story arcs out there, and I found running these (back in AD&D for me) proved a good insight onto what goes into an adventure and how to prepare etc.

The Sunless Citadel is often said to be an excellent adventure for a new group, that might be one to pick up.

The other advice I'd give is don't be afraid to loot, pillage and steal ideas from anywhere (books, films, EN World story hours, or even the news headlines are all good), and don't work too hard with endlessly detailed preparations. And enjoy it!

 

[Stormborn]

Good advice so far. I will add a little bit

Try running an adventure that is nominally a one-shot just to test some things out. Use 5th level characters for the PCs and run them against a few challanges to see if they can handle it. If they can then you can let that work into a larger adventure in your homebrew. I find that my players like fighting things they have never fought before but also like the occasional mop up- a fight against lots of lower level creatures that they can easily wipe out.
WotC has a few free adventures for that level that you could check out, either to serve as a guideline or to run out right. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b
Try Base of Operations

Become very familiar with the CR and EL tables inthe DMG. It is an absolute must.

As for the campaign. mixing fairly linear adventures with a clear goal with times of choice. For example the PCs are hired to retrieve X and obeject with both political and magical power by a noble. In their quest they learn of different people who want it, and some of the possible reasons for them wanting it. Once the PCs get it they have to decide if they give it to the rich noble who hired them, the outcaste robber lord who is the rightful ruler, or the poor but good cleric who says it is needed to save the world? Break the sessions when it comes time to decide and have the players contact you and each other between sessions on what they plan to do so that you can prepare appropriatelly.

Parties cannot be mixed - eitehr they can be good and neutral or they can be evil and neutral. Trust me. Saves a lot on the wear and tear of the group and the DM.

Also let me echo the advice of others and say :READ. Read nonw Sword and Sorcery/DnD stuff. Watch TV and movies. Then steal it all. Or take soemthing like Eberron and Sharn for a different approach, change the names and world if you want something different, but Sharn is a pretty good example of a non-standard city that works well in DnD IMO.

 

[Quartz]

One trick to starting at higher levels is to deliberately make the characters more rounded by making them multiclass - usually 3/2 - so the spellcasters have a second, non-spellcasting, class. This will also have the benefit of making it easier for them to enter Prestige Classes.

Iconic mixes are Ftr 2 / Rog 3, Wiz 3 / Rog 2, Pal 2 / Clr 3, and Pal 2 / Kt 1 / Ftr 2.

You'll need to tone down the magical side of encounters slightly.

 

[Stormborn]

One trick to starting at higher levels is to deliberately make the characters more rounded by making them multiclass - usually 3/2 - so the spellcasters have a second, non-spellcasting, class. This will also have the benefit of making it easier for them to enter Prestige Classes.

Iconic mixes are Ftr 2 / Rog 3, Wiz 3 / Rog 2, Pal 2 / Clr 3, and Pal 2 / Kt 1 / Ftr 2.

You'll need to tone down the magical side of encounters slightly.

I don't believe that this is a good idea for the OPs group. As Quartz notes balancing magic encounters becomes an issue when everyone is casting at less than average party level. Since the OP said he didn't really grasp CR/EL well and didn't know much about starting at a hgiher level I don't think adding complexity to the encounters is wise. This kind of multiclassing can be beneficial when you don't have enough players but I don't see it adressing the issues that the OP mentions.

 

[Insight]

Concerning the railroading angle:

The surest way to eliminate the appearance of railroading is to create in the players' minds the illusion that events are transpiring according to what their characters want, as opposed to the design of your adventure.

I say illusion because, of course, things should be transpiring according to your design. If not, you either have a bad design or overly-rebellious players. Assuming neither is the case, what you want to do is create events that interest the characters. Draw the characters into your plot and trap them there, with the only obvious recourse to address the issues of your plot. Now, the difference between an interesting and involved adventure and railroading is subtle here. It's how you draw them in, as opposed to forcing them into the events that make up your plot.

So what you want to do first is to find out what the characters want. What are their motivations? Why are they adventurers? How can you use these motivations to drive your plot?

Some of this can be designed into the campaign from the get-go. For example, if you want to involve a certain secret organization in the major events of your campaign, involve that secret organization into one of your characters' lives, or more than one. Maybe a relative or loved one was captured or killed by this organization. Presto! Instant motivation!

 

[corcio]

AWESOME ADVICE.
so now the question that comes up is

do you restrict alignments?
time for a new post

 

[Evilhalfling]

one thing that might help with alignments and starting at a higher level is telling the players that they each need to have a reason for working with the group, be they part of an organization, like a secret society, or military group. They should all have met and become companions in their backstories, before the game starts. It might be possible to have one character of another alignment this way, but generally staying with no evil or no good alignment requirement is a good idea. (there might be problems with LN and CN but its less likely)

Staying with a good party is easier to plan for, they have less freedom of action - for instance if asked for help they generally wont refuse and go rob the local jewler instead.

As for the comparison between a 1st and 5th lvl character, part of it depends on what the rest of the world is like. 5th lvl is generaly the level for the head of a small town church,
the captain of a watch patrol, or a grizzeled sergant. A 5th lvl thief would be a professional working as fence, or sucessful other guildmember.
For Jet Li on Crack your looking at 12+.

In Forgotten Realms 5th lvl characters are newbie adventures, stong enough to survive without protection, but not expected to make a difference. For someone to stand out for thier fighting ability they are probably epic