D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly, I haven't run into large groups of Orcs with my Wizard since I got Fireball, lol, but if I did, I'd use it. Or Web. Or Sleet Storm. Or something else.

Then again, I might say "eh, they is Orcs, I should be conserving my spell slots. The Cleric will probably murder them all anyways with Spirit Guardians."

Which is also a high level slot. And concentration.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Let's see, the playtest 4elements lv6 Environmental Blast is...

• 20ft radius
• selectable element
• 3d8 dmg, halved on save
• not upcastable

It certainly makes the lv11 Fireball look amazing. But... what if you could do it as a bonus action?

OTOH, an 11th level Environmental Blast is doing 3d10 (plus the Unarmed Attack), and the Monk can do it 5 times per Short Rest plus another 5 times per Long Rest.

Whereas the 11th level Fireball can be done 2 times per Short Rest and that's it.

It's less damage per "spell," but you actually get to be an Elements Monk twice as often as the 2014 version.

 

[renbot]

Also aligns with the way I have only seen people play the monk.

Heh. Aligns with the only way I have seen people play the monk SUCCESSFULLY.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

It's less damage per "spell," but you actually get to be an Elements Monk twice as often as the 2014 version.

True, but... this is a game about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible.

Plus, I think hitting everyone in a 20ft radius but for low dmg feels wrong, like you're slowly microwaving people.

 

[Asisreo]

True, but... this is a game about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible.

Plus, I think hitting everyone in a 20ft radius but for low dmg feels wrong, like you're slowly microwaving people.

Yes. Unless you have supporting blasters that can weaken up the whole group quickly, your additional damage isn't going to drop relevant threats consistently.

 

[Stalker0]

Again, like I said, it seems pretty campaign dependent. The game I'm playing in, "weaker" foes at even level 7 aren't even going to be reduced to half hit points by Fireball, so I'm not seeing how useful this power would be at level 11.

I mean every spell's power level is partially campaign dependent, but we need to look at areas of commonality.

Now some campaigns are going to focus on nothing but BBEGs, and some will have mooks a plenty...both of those are more extreme. But I do think that most campaigns feature a mix of fights with a 1-3 monsters and others with like 4-6 monsters.

Now in the 4-6 monster scenario, even if I can't "kill" any of them with a fireball, if I hit 3 of them thats 84 damage (assuming they all fail save). And from personal experience, getting 3 targets in a fireball in most fights isn't too hard when your dealing with 5-6 monsters.

Meanwhile the 11th level monk with flurry is going to do (assuming all 5 attacks hit with our new flurry).... about ~53 damage. The flurry does 89% more damage to a single target (53 vs 28). The fireball does about ~58% more total damage (84 vs 53). And of course the fireball performs even better if you hit 4,5,6 targets....but of course the more targets the less likely that is to happen in any given scenario. I think everyone agrees that fireballing 1 target is not worth it....and probably not 2 either...you would want to get in a cluster before you consider it.

Is that worth it? The player can debate it of course and it does depend on the rest of your party members, but I would say that's a reasonable niche difference. Both clearly have benefits and drawbacks compared to the other, I wouldn't say one rules the day in all cases.

 

[Stalker0]

Meanwhile, the Warlock at level 11 could use all three Pact Slots for 10d6 Fireballs (or a 4th or 5th-level spell) per short rest, and have their Eldritch Blast to fall back on, which is ranged, also has three attacks, and does d10+5 (probably) vs. the Monk's d8+5. Plus rider effects like Push or Pull.

I do think if your goal is to reign down elemental power....the 4elements monk will not be your cup of tea....and honestly really isn't meant to be. Its a monk that gets in close, but then throws in some elemental powers as they work, rather than fireball, fireball, fireball like you could with the warlock.

In "avatar" terms, the 4elem monk is the characters that are throwing it down in melee while mixing in the elemental powers, whereas if your playing a bender that is just all bending all the time, they sit back and throw down elemental powers all the time....a spellcaster is a better fit for that archetype.

 

[Vikingkingq]

True, but... this is a game about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible.

Plus, I think hitting everyone in a 20ft radius but for low dmg feels wrong, like you're slowly microwaving people.

I don’t think that’s as true in the current edition. Hence why we’ve seen a move away from nova and towards sustainability as with the changes to Paladin‘s Divine Smite.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

True, but... this is a game about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible.

Plus, I think hitting everyone in a 20ft radius but for low dmg feels wrong, like you're slowly microwaving people.

This is not the game we play.

 

[Mistwell]

True, but... this is a game about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible.

Plus, I think hitting everyone in a 20ft radius but for low dmg feels wrong, like you're slowly microwaving people.

That entirely depends on the model your games tend to follow.

Some models have many battles against weaker foes each day and for that model it's not about nova bursts but is about consistent good damage without running out of those attacks.

Other models are about a few battles against strong foes each day and for that model you're right about alpha striking to drop as many things as fast as possible because you're less concerned with running out of those attacks.

The game can work with either type of model, but different versions of this monk will work best with one or the other of these models.

As for feel, that's something I think most D&D players can work through with effort, given imagination tends to be a strength of most players, yourself included I believe. I suspect if you liked the model it was operating under, you'd find the flavor that met your preferences for it.