OSR Old school wizards, how do you play level 1?

[amethal]

I don't think this one was so much "screw your buddies over" as "we need to do something RIGHT NOW" and not thinking it all the way - or even just a little way - through.

One of my friends still occasionally mentions a fight with an animated rug, even though it happened the best part of 20 years ago.

The rug attacked the wizard, and was suffocating him. The wizard somehow managed to break the grapple (for which the odds were very much not in his favour), and threw off the rug. The party rogue then rushed in and set fire to the rug.

On the rug's turn, it grappled the wizard again - and now it's on fire ...

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I mean, it literally says that they start as fighters, change to thief, then change to bard. That's multiple classes. I looked at it last night. They are a class that begins as two classes and then are a special case that gets a third class. You start as a fighter and have to change classes between 5th and 7th level. Then you switch to thief until 5th to 8th level. Then you switch to bard.

"Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability..."

You may have looked at it, but you didn't pause to understand it. Look, not only did I just quote the 1981 Dragon Sage Advice (you know, the one that was entirely about Bards) that contradicts what you are saying .... but

I also wrote a longer post that touches on the issue.

But sure, let's look at the rule. Bards don't follow the "character with two classes" rule because ... wait for it ... THEY DON'T. Not once they are past the thief part. The second they become a bard (literally, the second) they are a bard. They immediately follow Bard Table III (armor and weapons permitted). They immediately fight as a fighter of the previous level. They immediately use their thieving abilities as a thief of the previous level. Most importantly, they do not have to follow the "two classes" rule to become a bard, because if they did, they would need ... wait for it ... a minimum score of 17 in ... strength, wisdom, dexterity, charisma, intelligence, AND charisma in order to become a bard.

You follow the "character with two classes" rule to go from fighter to thief. Then you follow the Bard rule. Period. Feel free to read it again. They are not a character with two classes; they are a bard.


(The "character with two classes" rule is one of those weird rules that people misapply more than almost any other one.)

 

[Maxperson]

You may have looked at it, but you didn't pause to understand it. Look, not only did I just quote the 1981 Dragon Sage Advice (you know, the one that was entirely about Bards) that contradicts what you are saying .... but

I also wrote a longer post that touches on the issue.

But sure, let's look at the rule. Bards don't follow the "character with two classes" rule because ... wait for it ... THEY DON'T. Not once they are past the thief part. The second they become a bard (literally, the second) they are a bard. They immediately follow Bard Table III (armor and weapons permitted). They immediately fight as a fighter of the previous level. They immediately use their thieving abilities as a thief of the previous level. Most importantly, they do not have to follow the "two classes" rule to become a bard, because if they did, they would need ... wait for it ... a minimum score of 17 in ... strength, wisdom, dexterity, charisma, intelligence, AND charisma in order to become a bard.

You follow the "character with two classes" rule to go from fighter to thief. Then you follow the Bard rule. Period. Feel free to read it again. They are not a character with two classes; they are a bard.


(The "character with two classes" rule is one of those weird rules that people misapply more than almost any other one.)

The bard rules are broken.

The bard rules say that you need a 15 or better in str, dex, wis and cha, with a 12 or better int and a 10 or better con. So we roll a character with S:15 I: 12 W:15 D:15 C:10 CH:15. That character should be able to be a bard, right? Wrong. He can start as a fighter, but can't ever switch to thief because he doesn't have a 17 or 18 dex to switch to thief. So a bard actually needs a 17 or better dex.

The bard rules say that you can be a half-elf, so a half-elf with S:15 I: 12 W:15 D:17 C:10 CH:15 should be able to become a bard, right? Wrong. You have to be human in order to go from fighter to thief as the bard rules demand. The bard rules don't allow a multiclass fighter/thief to become a bard.

You say that we have to follow the bard rules period, but the bard rules period are broken and don't work.

I also don't give old Sage Advice any more credibility than the new Sage Advice. The game was written in a contradictory manner and the Sage Advice written by people who didn't play the game as it was written in the books anyway. It amounted to just an opinion by a DM on how to run things.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The bard rules are broken.

The bard rules say that you need a 15 or better in str, dex, wis and cha, with a 12 or better int and a 10 or better con. So we roll a character with S:15 I: 12 W:15 D:15 C:10 CH:15. That character should be able to be a bard, right? Wrong. He can start as a fighter, but can't ever switch to thief because he doesn't have a 17 or 18 dex to switch to thief. So a bard actually needs a 17 or better dex.

The bard rules say that you can be a half-elf, so a half-elf with S:15 I: 12 W:15 D:17 C:10 CH:15 should be able to become a bard, right? Wrong. You have to be human in order to go from fighter to thief as the bard rules demand. The bard rules don't allow a multiclass fighter/thief to become a bard.

You say that we have to follow the bard rules period, but the bard rules period are broken and don't work.

I also don't give old Sage Advice any more credibility than the new Sage Advice. The game was written in a contradictory manner and the Sage Advice written by people who didn't play the game as it was written in the books anyway. It amounted to just an opinion by a DM on how to run things.

Tell me more about the strange inclusion of the half-elf, as I've never thought of it before.

D&D General - Rulings, not Rules: How Will You Solve the Bard / Half Elf Dilemma?

So another thread has gone by wherein we all marveled at the clarity and interoperability of the 1e Gygaxian Ruleset, each of us remarking, "Those rules are as clear as an unmuddied stream; verily, the rules are as easy to apply as soft butter on a hot griddle!" Unfortunately, we did manage to...

www.enworld.org

Yes, the bard rules are weird. That said, they are not as "broken" as people claim. Most people just don't bother to read through them. They suffer from a few notable issues, and only two things that I consider per se broken.*

1. The bard rules allow for half elves to be bards. But half elves cannot follow the bard progression.

2. The bard rules do not provide for a proficiency penalty, which means that the bard cannot use weapons that are allowed, but which the bard is not proficient in. Arguably this is covered by the "A bard always engages in combat at the level he or she attained as a fighter." This would mean that the bard's penalty is -2, which seems a fair extrapolation of that sentence.

That's it.

The dexterity minimum is just one of the many areas where the rules interact a certain way; it's like the two-class character rules which say you can do any class, but leave it unclear just how impossible it would be to two-class into certain classes. Moreover, people forget about magic; you can lose ability points, and you won't lose you Bard ability unless you drop below the 15 in dex- not the 17 that was required as a two-classed thief.**


As for Sage Advice, you can believe what you want to, but Sage Advice was published by Dragon Magazine (part of TSR), and offered official answers to questions submitted by readers. So ... you do you on that!


*Well, the third thing that was broken was, of course, the existence of the Bard itself.

**It's the same reason you can see references to fighter and thief levels one higher than what was allowed; there was the possibility that the Bard would max those out, then later read a manual that would advance those levels by one.

 

[Andvari]

That fact was not in the 1e PH but secret knowledge in the DMG.

Light (Alteration) Reversible
Level: 1 Components: V, S
Range: 12” Casting Time: 4 segments
Duration: 6 turns + 1 turn/level Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: 2” radius globe
Explanation/Description: This spell causes excitation of molecules so as to make them brightly luminous. The light thus caused is equal to torch light in brightness, but its sphere is limited to 4” in diameter. It lasts for the duration indicated (7 turns at 1st experience level, 8 at 2nd, 9 at 3rd, etc.) or until the caster utters a word to extinguish the light. The light spell is reversible, causing darkness in the same area and under the same conditions, except the blackness persists for only one-half the duration that light would last. If this spell is cast upon a creature, the applicable magic resistance and saving throw dice rolls must be made. Success indicates that the spell affects the area immediately behind the creature, rather than the creature itself. In all other cases, the spell takes effect where the caster directs as long as he or she has a line of sight or unobstructed path for the spell; light can spring from air, rock, metal, wood, or almost any similar substance.

Light (Alteration)
Level: 1 Components: V, S
Range: 6” Casting Time: 1 segment
Duration: 1 turn/level Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: 2” radius globe
Explanation/Description: With the exceptions noted above, this spell is the same as the first level cleric light spell (q.v.).

DMG page 41:

Light: It should be noted that if this spell is cast upon the visage or before the visual organs of a creature, it will tend to blind it (rather as if a strong light were placed before its eyes), and its attacks and defenses will be a –4 on “to hit”, saving throws, and even armor class. Note also that the spell is not mobile, although it can be cast upon a movable or mobile object or creature.

Here's the Rules Cyclopedia (Basic D&D) version

Light*
Range: 120'
Duration: 6 turns +1 turn/level of the caster
Effect: Volume of 30' diameter

This spell creates a large ball of light, much like a bright torchlight. If the spell is cast on an object (such as a coin), the light will move with the object. If cast at a creature's eyes, the creature must make a saving throw vs. spells. If he hails the saving throw, the victim will be blinded until the duration ends (see page 150 for the effects of blindness). If he makes the saving throw, the light appears in the air behind the intended victim.
...

 

[Voadam]

And Moldvay B/X Basic:

Light Range: 120'
Duration: 6 turns + the level of
the caster, in turns
This spell casts light in a circle, 30' in diameter. It is bright enough to read by, but not equal to full daylight. It may be cast on an object. The light may be cast at a creature's eyes. The creature may make a saving throw vs. Spells, but if it fails, the victim will be blinded for the duration of the spell. In D&D BASIC rules, a blinded creature may not attack. The effects of the spell will last for 7 turns if a first level magic-user casts the spell, 8 turns for a second level magic-user, and so forth.

 

[Mannahnin]

I mean, it literally says that they start as fighters, change to thief, then change to bard. That's multiple classes. I looked at it last night. They are a class that begins as two classes and then are a special case that gets a third class. You start as a fighter and have to change classes between 5th and 7th level. Then you switch to thief until 5th to 8th level. Then you switch to bard.

"Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability..."

Bards were the most broken implementation of multiclass in 1ed and to make it worse they broke the rule without specifically saying that it was broken and allowed 1/2 elves to be bards but the the rules specifically state they cant multiclass so by raw they actually can't get to the point of taking the bard level... they were almost as borked as the Psionics rules.

Yah, Snarf has put in the candle hours on this one. Bards do their own weird thing which doesn't abide by the regular "The Character With Two Classes" rules.

I had forgotten the blinding ability of light. It was so rarely used offensively back in the day.

That fact was not in the 1e PH but secret knowledge in the DMG.

Yeah, I was going to point out that Moldvay puts it right in the spell description and makes it impossible for a blinded creature to attack, vice 1E's -4 TH penalty and hiding the application in the DMG.

This is an area which can tell you which a given player started with, whether they think of Light as pure utility or as being a powerful offensive spell.

 

[Lanefan]

I had forgotten the blinding ability of light. It was so rarely used offensively back in the day.

IME that was 90+% of the reason it ever got cast. It didn't last long enough to be a viable light source for a day's exploring.

 

[Maxperson]

IME that was 90+% of the reason it ever got cast. It didn't last long enough to be a viable light source for a day's exploring.

I saw it mostly used when one or two people had infravision, the party was out of torches, and here come the monsters. That and in combats where everyone needed both hands and a dropped torch might go out or be put out.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I had forgotten the blinding ability of light.

Blinded by the light?

Brah, it was the '70s.