D&D 4E Mythusmage's D&D 4e Thoughts

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I want 4E to still be D&D. Some of these suggestions ... aren't.

 

[Lanefan]

1. Expand the base number of levels from 20 to 100 by spreading the power gain of the existing levels 1-20 over the first 80 levels, weighted in favor of levels 5-12 (which would be appx. levels 10-55). Play would generally be expected to go from level 5-10 to level 60, about like a typical console RPG, but the rules would be designed to go up to 100. Bonuses exceeding rolls would be a feature, not a bug, IMO.
Chances of happening: essentially none.

In theory, this looks good. In practice, it'd be an absolute nightmare! With 100 levels, that means a player needs to do the level-up bookkeeping 100 times...in a 2-year campaign, this would mean every session! Somehow, I don't see this happening...

2. Rebuild the existing classes using a point buy system. They should all end up with the same number of points at their 'capstone' level, and ideally within 5% of their points at each individual level (perhaps 10% at 1st level). Include these rebuilt classes in the PHB, and the system used to make them in the DMG. Make it extremely clear that building new classes is the DM's job (and WotC's, of course; got to sell them splatbooks ), not the player's.
Chances of happening: poor.

I'm not sure quite what you mean with this...are you getting at reducing *all* class features to what would amount to a much-expanded skills table? If so, you're starting to drift away from D+D and into something else, I think.

3. Do the same thing for races as was done for classes. I think this is actually a bit more likely, because there seems to be more discontent with the LA system and the 'balance' of the core races than with the class system, especially in the core. See: dwarves vs. half-orcs/half-elves. Possibly make half-@@ a feat or template (in general, a LA+0 template) that can be applied to multiple creatures.
Chances of happening: decent.

Or, get away from this foolishness of having non-kindred races as PC's except maybe as a splat option. Half-xxx - or part-xxx (these should be fine-tuned, to reflect that part-xxx's can breed with either race, and a half-elf/human child will be 1/4-elf) - should not be reduced to a chooseable feat...yuck!

4. Do the same thing for spells as was done for races and classes. The point-buy system for spells should be effects-oriented like the in the HERO system. Of course, include the prebuilt standards in the PHB and the system in the DMG. Spell research should use these guidelines, of course.
Chances of happening: very poor.

No idea what you're getting at here. Please elaborate.

5. Remove the arbitrary need for a 'healer' and rebalance the cleric and druid accordingly. Healing should be a bonus, not a requirement, just like any other ability. On the flip side, make healing spells *much* stronger. WotC of all companies should have known how efficient life gain has to be to be worthwhile. An action taken to cast a heal spell (which delays your losing the battle) is an action that could have been taken to cast an offensive spell or attack (which causes you to win the battle).
Chances of happening: good.

If you remove the need for a healer you'd also have to reduce or eliminate damage that needs healing. And, healing spells are rarely if ever cast *during* a battle except in dire circumstances; the patching-up is done after the battle is won. Healing spells don't need any strengthening

6. In fact, remove all forced party roles. Design the game in a way that makes a combination of classes interesting and useful, rather than leaving in artifacts (like the rogue's trapfinding ability or the need for healing) that force a party to include certain classes or suffer gravely for it. The 'magic-user' and 'fighting-man' roles don't need to be forced; the 'cleric' and 'thief' roles either shouldn't (cleric) or don't (thief/rogue). Electronic games have found ways to make using a mix of characters beneficial and fun despite having fewer useful roles, so this isn't impossible by any means.
Chances of happening: good.

Then you have to redesign the average adventure so those "roles" aren't required - no more traps, etc. Chances are those electronic games you're referring to have removed those elements without anyone noticing...

7. Remove Vancian magic and x/day abilities in favor of either x/encounter, SP/MP (which regenerate over time), unlimited but weaker or unlimited but with drawbacks spellcasting and abilities. x/encounter seems to work the best.
Chances of happening: poor for spells, very good for x/day abilities.

Define encounter. How do non-encounter-based spells work e.g. most divinations? I'd rather see a looser version of the current system, where you have so many slots-per-level-per-day but you can cast wild-card within each level, so no more memorization. As for x/day, that's such a simple mechanic I fail to see any need for change.

8. Make counterspelling effective. This actually ties into (4.) - effective counterspelling should be the major check on magic's power, not limiting it on a per day basis. Choosing to counter a spell should be a viable choice and should be made at instant speed, as in Magic the Gathering. The mechanics (swift action casting times) are already in place. Like healing, counterspelling must be very effective if it consumes resources or, worse, actions, since it only prevents/delays losing rather than winning in its own right.
Chances of happening: decent.

I'd like to see countering be more useful, but limited such that you really have to pick your spots when using it. Simplest option: make Counterspell itself a spell...second level, casting time immediate, cannot be improved or affected by any metamagic feat. That way, there's a built-in limit on how many you can do, and at cost of casting other 2nd-level spells.

9. Include action points in the core rules. Then expand them to at LEAST the level of M&M hero points, if not Cinematic Unisystem drama points. In short, make them the mechanism by which the players, normally only in control of their PCs, exert narrative control. One action point may only give a bonus to a die roll, two may count as a minor success, but a sufficient number should give the player Wushu-level control over events. Like all abilities, action points should not refresh on a per day basis. I like Mutants & Masterminds' refresh system, wherein hero points are given out when the DM fudges for a villain in the way a hero point would be used or brings a hero's complication into play.
Chances of happening: very good for inclusion, poor for expansion, decent for refresh rate/system.

Sucks for the DM, who goes to all the trouble of designing an edge-of-the-seat encounter only to have the PC's use a few action points to avoid the harm. The PC's have enough ways of escaping death or harm, they don't need any more, and certainly not something as broad-brush as this.

10. Clean up the creature types, with a heavier emphasis on subtypes. Suggested types: Beast, Humanoid, Spirit. Then make a skeleton Humanoid (Undead), an angel Humanoid (Outsider, Good), an air elemental Spirit (Elemental, Air) and a dragon Beast (Dragon). Don't be squeamish about a creature having 4-5 subtypes if needed - they are far easier to key abilities off of and should be used extensively. Creature type cleanup has been ongoing in Magic for years, and D&D could use the same thing if not more extreme.
Chances of happening: decent.

This is not Magic. Creature type does not even need to exist in D+D and can easily be ditched completely. If an ability needs something to base off of, use alignment.

11. Clean up the social skills. Make them clearer, possibly a cleaned-up version of Rich Burlew's diplomacy variant, and include good DM advice for using them - as well as for the option of reducing their role. Discuss the main methods: roll first then roleplay results, rolling only, roleplaying only, and roleplay for bonuses/penalties to the roll.
Chances of happening: good.

Sooner or later, I had to agree with something here; this is it. Alert the media!

12. In general, make skills only a few levels behind spells. A 20th level rogue's Hide and Move Silently (possibly combined into Sneak) should be better than a 3rd level wizard's invisibility and silence, but the wizard's spells should be better than a 3rd level rogue's skills. Similarly, Diplomacy and Intimidate should lag a few levels behind suggestion and dominate person - but their ability to influence actions should eventually be just as powerful.
Chances of happening: poor.

That'd make spells and spellcasters much less useful; how would you compensate?

13. Reduce the importance of equipment. Make an equipment focused character an option, not a requirement. Ideally, make the game effects of equipment a class feature. King Arthur's weapon is important to his mystique; Lancelot's is not. Aragorn's weapon is; Conan's is not. Cloud's is; Terra's is not. Reduce the reliance on assorted glowy knick-knacks like Boots of Striding and Springing and Bracers of Armor.
Chances of happening: poor.

I agree here also. Tinker toys are fun, which is why the game gives so many out, but when their existence is built in to adventure design it's gone too far. That said, having the occasional item specific to a character can really add to the story.

Lanefan

 

[helium3]

The whole thing written and presented in a manner that invites concentrated study and facilitates retention of information. With a proper index, one common to all three books and shared between all three books

While I myself would love to see WOTC publish Encylopedia Dugeonica, I doubt it would do much to sell itself to new players. I'm not sure I'd like to see it happen simply because I don't relish the thought of playing a dead hobby.

 

[Greg K]

What I'd like to see:


9. Include action points in the core rules.

13. Reduce the importance of equipment.

Definitely yes to both. I can't believe that I forgot to include them in my list.

 

[Nadaka]

I want to see:

d20 modern as a base.
Wounds/Vitality instead of hit points.
Magic levels 0, 1 and 2 are bought with feats.
After 3rd level, advanced/prestige classes handle the magic progression.

 

[WayneLigon]

4. Do the same thing for spells as was done for races and classes. The point-buy system for spells should be effects-oriented like the in the HERO system. Of course, include the prebuilt standards in the PHB and the system in the DMG. Spell research should use these guidelines, of course.
Chances of happening: very poor.

No idea what you're getting at here. Please elaborate.

Powers in the HERO system are effects-based. Instead of describing what something is, you describe what it does and leave the window dressing to the player.

An example of this in D&D: instead of the plethora of damage spells we have, we'd have one spell: Damage. It might look something very much like this:

Damage
Invocation
Level: Wiz1
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: Toughness
Spell Resistance: Yes
Cost: 1

Does 1d6 damage per caster level.

There would then be some mechanism in place that could modify that spell; they might be feats or other spells or some class ability. The Cold Mage feat might make that damage into Cold damage, for instance. If we're talking about a spell point system here, then the spell costs one point. Add another point, and the spell is suddenly ranged. Add another point and you're doing 1d8 instead of 1d6 per level. Add two more points and it's suddenly ranged and affects a globe. Add another point and it only affects your enemies. Subtract a point and it only does Fatigue damage. Subtract another point because you have to use a wand as a focus.

That kind of stuff.

This way you add in versatility and can do away with the reams of spells we have now. You could probably scrape almost all spells in D&D down to about ten-fifteen common effects and then just have variations on a theme via additional point costs, or feats, or however you want to modift the basic effect. It also lends itself much more readily to customized magic that can more readily mimic what you see in a book or movie.

 

[the Jester]

Dispense with the current means of rolling, or have a bottom cap on stats. Virtually no-one is going to play a character with a less-than-average stat unless there is some burning roleplaying need, so all stats have a minimum of 10, or stats are rolled on 2d6+7, or something similar.

I disagree with this so strongly that I had to post just to say so.

Some of my most memorable characters have had really low stats- one of them had a 3 charisma, another a strength of 8 and a charisma of 6. Some of the coolest, most memorable pcs in my campaign have had low stats, too- Tron (in my halfling story hour, linked in sig) is a halfling crahk-head with a wisdom of 1; there was a 2e bard/assassin with a wisdom of 1, too (ensconced in legends as the Bad Man of the Woods).

 

[A'koss]

If you want to have a peek at some of the ideas likely to make it into 4e, I'd suggest looking at the new Star Wars "Saga Edition" game coming out next year...

 

[Gold Roger]

I want 4E to still be D&D. Some of these suggestions ... aren't.

I agree. I'm not sure I'm "quilty" in your eyes (though I hope I'm not). Imho, D&D works at its best when it's done and played as D&D. Changes made shouldn't detract from that, but ideally D&Dfy D&D more.

 

[WayneLigon]

If you want to have a peek at some of the ideas likely to make it into 4e, I'd suggest looking at the new Star Wars "Saga Edition" game coming out next year...

Perhaps, but most of the changes I've heard about don't go as far as I would suppose for an entire edition jump. Though I thought for a long time that d20 Modern was effectively a testbed for 4E and that doesn't seem like it's going to pan out. Though it could have been tested as such and when it didn't take off like they planned, they switched to some other model.