OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

[BrassDragon]

To me, the key components of what is now called OSR are 'rulings over rules' and 'the answer is not on your character sheet'.... two things 5E can still accommodate but doesn't usually encourage.

In my games, that means if you rely on the rules to solve a situation, I will not pull punches, fudge rolls or assume your character is always heroic and capable. Then the story unfolds according to the dice and cold probability. And yes, with old school, swingy, rules-light systems with no safety nets / delayed character deaths, that means characters can die more easily than in D&D 5E. Whatever the system, if you rely on the dice to tell the story of your character, I will follow where dice lead us.

But if you improvise, come up with interesting solutions, combine magical abilities in unexpected ways, come at a monster with out-of-the-box diplomacy, or trap it without a fight, I will bend over backwards to make that work or incorporate as much of your idea as possible into the unfolding saga. If you rely on imagination to tell the story of your character, I will follow where your ideas lead us.

I tell players this upfront but it usually becomes obvious after a few sessions. As far as I'm concerned, the DM is not the sole arbiter of the game's difficulty and deadliness... players are free to take risks or go the extra mile to avoid or mitigate them.

 

[Mallus]

I hope I don’t jinx myself, since I’m currently playing in a Labyrinth Lord campaign, but no, OSR does‘t have to be deadly. Deadlier than baseline 5e, sure. But you can play these systems in a more heroic mode, which is how my friends & I played AD&D back in the 1980s.

 

[tetrasodium]

To me, the key components of what is now called OSR are 'rulings over rules' and 'the answer is not on your character sheet'.... two things 5E can still accommodate but doesn't usually encourage.

In my games, that means if you rely on the rules to solve a situation, I will not pull punches, fudge rolls or assume your character is always heroic and capable. Then the story unfolds according to the dice and cold probability. And yes, with old school, swingy, rules-light systems with no safety nets / delayed character deaths, that means characters can die more easily than in D&D 5E. Whatever the system, if you rely on the dice to tell the story of your character, I will follow where dice lead us.

But if you improvise, come up with interesting solutions, combine magical abilities in unexpected ways, come at a monster with out-of-the-box diplomacy, or trap it without a fight, I will bend over backwards to make that work or incorporate as much of your idea as possible into the unfolding saga. If you rely on imagination to tell the story of your character, I will follow where your ideas lead us.

I tell players this upfront but it usually becomes obvious after a few sessions. As far as I'm concerned, the DM is not the sole arbiter of the game's difficulty and deadliness... players are free to take risks or go the extra mile to avoid or mitigate them.

This is really well worded. I think I'm going to be stealing it to add to my houserules packet because it takes so long to get 5e players to even take their first babystep towards doing that kinda stuff ime

 

[Michael Linke]

That only works once. After that, you get a reputation for using hirelings as cannon fodder and no one wants to work for you. As Mal Reynolds said, "What good's a reward, kid, if you're ain't around to use it?"

The 100 archers aren't really cannon fodder. They pretty handily kill the dragon, and the vast majority of them survive to get payed for the job.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The 100 archers aren't really cannon fodder. They pretty handily kill the dragon, and the vast majority of them survive to get payed for the job.

Even a blue dragon in 1st edition didn't last long against a 100 man group with longbows.

Actually, the vast majority of them would be paralyzed with fear or run away in 1E anyway:

as 0-level creatures would need a 14+ to make their save.

Not sure how this would compare to OSR material.

 

[Campbell]

If you like the flavor and tone of OSR stuff, but are looking for something where the stakes are not so immediately high I recommend looking at Freebooters on the Frontier. It's the Powered by the Apocalypse fantasy game inspired by D&D. Freebooters hews much more closely to old school tropes. We've used it in tandem with a lot of B/X and DCC adventures to pretty great effect. The Second Edition is still free too.

 

[Michael Linke]

Actually, the vast majority of them would be paralyzed with fear or run away in 1E anyway:

View attachment 131120
as 0-level creatures would need a 14+ to make their save.

Not sure how this would compare to OSR material.

The dragon would need to "fly overhead or charge" to do that in 1e. THe biggest blue dragon i can see in the 1e MM has only 10 HD and AC 2. A dragon average 45 hp getting shot at by 100 archers is going to take an average of 35 damage in the first round (assuming THAC0 20 against the dragon's AC 2). The Dragon may have won initiative and got to go first, but you'd probably tell your 100 archers to spread out across the battlefield, to minimize the threat of the dragon's breath attack, rather than mass in formation for no good reason. I really think a clever leader could get the job done with even 50 archers.

In BECMI, dragons have no such abilities, and this fear effect would be covered by the normal morale rules.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The dragon would need to "fly overhead or charge" to do that in 1e. THe biggest blue dragon i can see in the 1e MM has only 10 HD and AC 2. A dragon average 45 hp getting shot at by 100 archers is going to take an average of 35 damage in the first round (assuming THAC0 20 against the dragon's AC 2). The Dragon may have won initiative and got to go first, but you'd probably tell your 100 archers to spread out across the battlefield, to minimize the threat of the dragon's breath attack, rather than mass in formation for no good reason. I really think a clever leader could get the job done with even 50 archers.

So, you think the dragon wouldn't be flying or charging?

If you think they would have 45 hp with 10 HD then you don't know how dragons work in 1E: it goes by age. An adult dragon would have 50 HP and an ancient 80 HP.

Even if you assume just an adult (50 HP), the archers would need a 14+ to make their saves. So, out of the 100 only 35 would make it. 0-level archers don't have THAC0 20, then need a 19 to hit AC 2. So, of those 35, only 3-4 would hit, averaging about 32 damage (since ROF is 2 with a bow).

Other points to consider are with AC adjustments, they would need a natural 20 to hit (due to the -1 longbow modifier) and also range would be an issue. In 1E, they would have a -5 at long range and -2 at medium range. With a flying speed of 24" the dragon could be completely out of the 21" range of a longbow. Throw in possible spells and it is even worse.

Also, even those who save have to continue to save each time the dragon is flying or charges. And the fear lasts for 40-240 minutes!!!

I'm not saying an adult dragon would easily win, I am just saying I don't think you understand how costly it would be for them to kill it.

 

[Michael Linke]

So, you think the dragon wouldn't be flying or charging?

If you think they would have 45 hp with 10 HD then you don't know how dragons work in 1E: it goes by age. An adult dragon would have 50 HP and an ancient 80 HP.

Even if you assume just an adult (50 HP), the archers would need a 14+ to make their saves. So, out of the 100 only 35 would make it. 0-level archers don't have THAC0 20, then need a 19 to hit AC 2. So, of those 35, only 3-4 would hit, averaging about 32 damage (since ROF is 2 with a bow).

Other points to consider are with AC adjustments, they would need a natural 20 to hit (due to the -1 longbow modifier) and also range would be an issue. In 1E, they would have a -5 at long range and -2 at medium range. With a flying speed of 24" the dragon could be completely out of the 21" range of a longbow. Throw in possible spells and it is even worse.

Also, even those who save have to continue to save each time the dragon is flying or charges. And the fear lasts for 40-240 minutes!!!

I'm not saying an adult dragon would easily win, I am just saying I don't think you understand how costly it would be for them to kill it.

I just think the archers would light the dragon up first. The dragon, being not stupid, and seeing 75% of its hp being stripped by a single volley, might decide to just leave rather than engage in a pissing match versus 100 humans.

But, i don't think the fear aura is an issue at all here. He's only 42' long. That 21" range on the bows is 630' in an outdoor encounter. You can't tell me that a dragon will get his "flying overhead" fear aura against an archer who's almost 9 dragon-body-lengths away. I don't think anyone would consider the dragon "flying overhead" of all of the archers at once unless those archers decided to group up super tight just to make it easy on the dragon.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I just think the archers would light the dragon up first. The dragon, being not stupid, and seeing 75% of its hp being stripped by a single volley, might decide to just leave rather than engage in a pissing match versus 100 humans.

Dragon fear has no range. As soon as the 100 archers see the dragon flying towards them ("charging") or it flies overhead (out of their range), 65-90 (depending on the age of the dragon) of them will either flee or be paralyzed for 4-24 turns.

Immediately the remainder would have to make a morale check and fail, also fleeing in panic or surrendering. The "each friend deserting" modifier of +15% would pretty much guarantee this.