Monk's UBAB and multiclassing

[RigaMortus]

If you are a Monk and multiclass later on, does the BAB of the new class stack with the Monk's UBAB?

If I had a 4 Monk / 2 Fighter, what would the BAB be? What would the UBAB be?

 

[Darkness]

PHB, p. 55, under BAB of multiclassed characters:
The monk is a special case because her additional unarmed attacks are better than her base attack bonus would suggest. For a multiclass monk fighting unarmed, the character must ether use the additiohnal attacks given for her monk levels (only) or the additional attacks that are standard for her comined base attack bonus, but not both.

That is, the BAB goes up, but you don't get the extra attacks.

So a Mnk4/Ftr2 would have an UBAB of +5 (not +5/+2).

 

[Cyberzombie]

I've tried to make sense of that several times, and it just doesn't seem right to me.

A 4th level monk has a +3 BAB and a +3 UBAB. A 2nd level fighter, according to every source I've read, has +2 BAB and a +0 UBAB. Every class, except for prestige classes that specifically say otherwise (and maybe some of the classes in OA, which I haven't read all the way through) have no bonus to UBAB at all.

So, basically, unless I've missed something somewhere, a multiclassed monk is going to have a lousy UBAB. That pretty much kills most Fighter/Monk combos.

Again, unless I've missed something.

 

[hong]

If you are a Monk and multiclass later on, does the BAB of the new class stack with the Monk's UBAB?

If I had a 4 Monk / 2 Fighter, what would the BAB be? What would the UBAB be?

The BAB stacks, but the iterative attack progression for the monk's unarmed attacks are calculated using only the monk class's contribution to BAB. In this case, a Mnk4/Ftr2 would have iterative attacks as

armed: +5
unarmed: +5/+1

A mnk10/ftr2 would have iterative attacks as

armed: +9/+4
unarmed: +9/+4/+1

Conversely, a mnk2/ftr10 would have iterative attacks as

armed: +11/+6/+1
unarmed: +11

...although in this last example, you could probably use the armed progression for unarmed attacks. I think.

Personally all this confusion over different rates of iterative progression was one reason I replaced the monk with the
martial artist

 

[RigaMortus]

Thanks a lot for the info, I was hoping it would stack...

I am playing a Dwarven Monk in a FR campaign soon and I was aiming for the Drunken Master PrC. I planned on taking a few levels in Fighter but the requirement for a Drunken Master is +4 or more in BAB and UBAB. So this helps a lot. Otherwise I would have had to gone straight Monk.

 

[Cyberzombie]

Well, everyone else's version looks a lot more logical than mine, so I'd go with it. I don't think that's what the rules say, but what the rules say looks pretty insane to me.

 

[Zhure]

The examples given by hong are correct.

When a monk is multiclassed with a non-monk, the combined BAB is used for the first swing, then each subsequent swing is either based on normal iterative attacks the UBAB's second swing, whichever the player prefers.

This is explained in Oriental Adventures very clearly. I typed it all out on the previous board. If it comes back online, I recommend doing a search for it, or check out OA.

Greg

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

guh! i wish the old boards were still available, because this issue has been discussed about 40 times over there.

bab does not stack with ubab at all. here's an exerpt from wotc's faq. it's somewhat relevant:

Does a monk always have to use his unarmed attack bonus when making unarmed attacks? What happens when a 10th-level fighter picks up one level of monk? Does the character now have an attack bonus of +0 when making unarmed attacks?

No, a monk does not always have to use his unarmed attack bonus when making unarmed attacks. The monk can use his best available attack bonus (and number of attacks) along with his unarmed damage or use just his unarmed attack bonus and unarmed damage. For example, 10th-level fighter/1st-level monk has a base attack bonus of +10/+5, which is much better than a 1st-level monk’s +0.

using hong's examples ...

mnk4/ftr2
armed: +5
unarmed: +3 (monk ubab) or +5 (regular bab)

mnk10/ftr2
armed: +9/+4
unarmed: +7/+4/+1 (monk ubab) or +9/+4 (regular bab)

mnk2/ftr10
armed: +11/+6/+1
unarmed: +1 (monk ubab) or +11/+6/+1 (regular bab)

and to clarify some more: the bab of any non-monk class doubles as their ubab, but it's not the the same, and therefore does not stack with a monk's ubab.

 

[graydoom]

Hong had it wrong, Zhure had it wrong, Cl1mh4224rd has it right.

When making unarmed attacks, you choose between using only UBAB or using only BAB. They never mix. You do not use some bizarre combination of both for the first then UBAB for the rest.

Cl1mh4224rd has it right. This is not that hard to understand.

The result of this is that most smart monks only multi-class in other classes that have a UBAB progression, like the couple monk-like classes in Sword & Fist.

 

[Zhure]

Hong had it wrong, Zhure had it wrong, Cl1mh4224rd has it right.

When making unarmed attacks, you choose between using only UBAB or using only BAB. They never mix. You do not use some bizarre combination of both for the first then UBAB for the rest.

Cl1mh4224rd has it right. This is not that hard to understand.

The result of this is that most smart monks only multi-class in other classes that have a UBAB progression, like the couple monk-like classes in Sword & Fist.

I respectfully disagree. This is clarified in Oriental Adventures. Let me quote the relevant section (again... I wish the old boards were available so I didn't have to retype it):

OA, page 33-34
"Character who have levels of only monk classes always get more unarmed attacks than they would noramlly get based on their base attack bonus (additionaly attacks at intervals of -3, instead of -5). Characters who have levels in other classes as well may or may not gain an advantage from this, and any advantage is often slight.

"Table 3-1: Multiple Unarmed Attacks
Base Attack Bonus Additional Unarmed Attacks
+0 .... ---
+1 .... ---
+2 .... ---
+3 .... ---
+4 .... +1
+5 .... +2
+6 .... +3
+7 .... +4/+1
+8 .... +5/+2
+9 .... +6/+3
+10 ... +7/+4/+1
+11 ... +8/+5/+2
+12 ... +9/+6/+3
+13 ... +10/+7/+4/+1
+14 ... +11/+8/+5/+2
+15 ... +12/+9/+6/+3

"Example: Asako Turima is a 10th-level monk/4th-level henshin mystic. His base attack bonus is +10 (+7 from his monk levels, +3 from his henshin mystic levels). Normally, this would give him an additional attack at +5. He can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for his +10 attack bonus (since the entire bonus is derived from monk and mystic levels) on Table 3-1: Multiple Unarmed Attacks, +7/+4/+1. Thus, he can make four attacks in a round with an unarmed strike (or a monk weaopn), at +10, +7, +4 and +1. When using another weapon, he can make two attacks at +10 and +5. He has the unarmed damage, AC bonus and speed of a 14th-level monk.

"Togashi Tidaiko, however, is a 3rd-level samurai/5th-level monk/ 7th-level tattooed monk. Her base atack bonus is +11 (+3 from her samurai levels, +3 from her monk levels, and +5 from her tattooed monk levels). Normally she would have two additional attacks at +6 and +1. She can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for a +8 base attack bonus from her monk and tattooed monk levels on Table 3-1, +5 and +2. She makes three attacks in a round, whether armed or unarmed. If unarmed (or using a monk weapon), she can choose whether to strike at +11/+6/+1 or at +11/+5/+2. Armed with an ordinary weapon, she must attack at +11/+6/+1. She has the unarmed damage, AC bonus, and abase speed of a 12-th level monk."

Hensin mystics, shintao monks and tattooed monks are prestige classes that are considered "monk classes."

That's just a long, complex way to explain the exact same thing hong and I said earlier.

The FAQ is wrong on other issues as well, sometimes completely contradicting the rules. For instance, it states that casting a Quickened spell provokes an AoO, but the rules clearly state otherwise.

Hope that helps,
Greg