M&M Stacking Question

[buzzard]

Here's a question for everyone. Ok not everyone, just the Mutants and Masterminds experts. As I understand things one's ability to stack powers is limited by the overall PL of the game. Thus if it's a PL 10 game I can't have protection 10 and Amazing Save Damage 10, I can only have a sum of the two that gets to 10. This also applies to attacks. Thus I can have super strength 10, but I can't top it with any claws.

How come, then, I've seen scads of characters in games here (on PbP) where people are stacking defense bonuses well past the power level? Theoretically for a PL 10 game the best defense possible should be 25 (10 for power, 5 for stat+base 10). I've seen ones on running up to 30 or so. Isn't this against the rules or am I missing something?

buzzard

 

[Insight]

Well, it could be a number of factors. First, it could just be that the players and the GM don't know about or understand the stacking rule. Second, it could be that their stats are poorly written, and could be a source of your confusion. Without knowing more about these characters, it's hard to say why their powers are beyond the PL limit.

The basic idea behind power stacking is that no single bonus for any roll with a power will be beyond PL + applicable base ability score (if any). This can get sticky if you have multiple effects that affect the same sort of attack, defense, or other.

For example, anything that reduces an incoming attack's effective damage bonus (Force Field, Protection, Absorption) must be added to a power that increases the character's damage save bonus (Amazing Save or Super-Con). This includes powers that have sub-effects, for example, Growth gives your character Protection.

It gets really tricky with Reflex saves and the Evasion feat. Evasion enables the character to make a Reflex save instead of a Damage save when struck in combat. This means that you must consider things like Protection or Force Field to stack with with things like Amazing Save - Reflex, Super-Dex, or Super-Speed, all powers which give a bonus to the Reflex save.

I hope that helps. If you have specific examples, I would be happy to address them. Also, take a look at the characters posted in the Rogue's Gallery thread listed in my signature. They are all built according to proper stacking rules, so maybe those examples will help as well.

 

[swrushing]

DEFENSE is a specific thing. its the "how hard am i to hit".

The max defense for a PL10 is 25.

Thats 10 base.
10 from buying DEFENSE (not a power) at 2 pp per.
10 from buying a superpower like superspeed that gives you a bonus to your defense.
5 from dexterity.


The PL limit on powers applies to points from powers.

Now, to clarify something else, you CAN have Prot-10 and amasing save damage-10 at PL-10, but you can only use against any single attack up to 10 pts of them.

Here's a question for everyone. Ok not everyone, just the Mutants and Masterminds experts. As I understand things one's ability to stack powers is limited by the overall PL of the game. Thus if it's a PL 10 game I can't have protection 10 and Amazing Save Damage 10, I can only have a sum of the two that gets to 10. This also applies to attacks. Thus I can have super strength 10, but I can't top it with any claws.

How come, then, I've seen scads of characters in games here (on PbP) where people are stacking defense bonuses well past the power level? Theoretically for a PL 10 game the best defense possible should be 25 (10 for power, 5 for stat+base 10). I've seen ones on running up to 30 or so. Isn't this against the rules or am I missing something?

buzzard

 

[buzzard]

So to clarify, I'm right, right?
At PL 10 max defense should be 25?
Though here's one more question, do feats count in this stacking? That's an area I'm fuzzy on. If they aren't part of it then defense could go a bit higher in some circumstances (expertise and dodge).

So is the max damage save one can have at PL 10 15 or 17? (I think toughness gives a +2)?

buzzard

 

[Insight]

Without feats, the max bonus to Defense would be +25 at PL 10, and your Defense would then be 35 in most situations. With Dodge, or something similar, it can get even higher, since feats don't count towards stacking limits. The Defense is calculated as such:

Base 10
+10 base defense @ 2pp/rank
+10 Super-Dex or Super-Spd, etc @ 4pp/rank, 6pp/rank, etc
+5 from regular Dex of 20, total cost 10pp

So that would be a really high Defense at a cost of at least 70pp if you take Super-Dex for the +10 from Powers.

Keep in mind that's nearly half of your pp for the character, and it really peeves the GM when you max out something like Defense, but that's a conversation for another thread.

Only Powers count for Stacking. Feats and Ability Scores do not count. Your max save bonus at PL 10 is +17, all things maxed out and a feat thrown in.

 

[DanMcS]

Here's a question for everyone. Ok not everyone, just the Mutants and Masterminds experts. As I understand things one's ability to stack powers is limited by the overall PL of the game. Thus if it's a PL 10 game I can't have protection 10 and Amazing Save Damage 10, I can only have a sum of the two that gets to 10. This also applies to attacks. Thus I can have super strength 10, but I can't top it with any claws.

How come, then, I've seen scads of characters in games here (on PbP) where people are stacking defense bonuses well past the power level? Theoretically for a PL 10 game the best defense possible should be 25 (10 for power, 5 for stat+base 10). I've seen ones on running up to 30 or so. Isn't this against the rules or am I missing something?

The limit is 10 due to powers, yes. A PL 10 hero could have a 41 AC very easily, though, with 10 base, 10 super-dex, 10 base defense bonus, 5 dex, 5 combat expertise, and 1 from dodge.

MnM has a base defense bonus (like d20 modern), which is probably the factor you're missing.

If they have more than 10 due to powers (some people don't understand and try to stack super-dex and super-speed, for instance), then yes, that's wrong.

 

[buzzard]

I now understand my problem. I wasn't thinking about how Defense and a power could stack, thus getting things up into the realm of 30+ or so.

buzzard

 

[takyris]

Yup. My Ace Bladewing character had a Defense in the 30's (Base 10 +10 Defense Bonus +5 Dex +10 Super-Dex) and could add to it even more (+5 Expertise +1 Dodge). He was nigh-unhittable by normal attacks. Of course, catch him off guard and he was toast.